Ep. 200: All Things Executive Function ~ 200th Episode

Sucheta Kamath: Welcome back to Full PreFrontal exposing the mysteries of executive function. I'm your host Sucheta Kamath. And I cannot believe this milestone is upon us are mainly here for me. But we are celebrating a 200 episode and a to mix it up. I have these two amazing guests who I claim as mine. They're my children and who have graciously offered their time and generous participation and I cannot wait to see how it unfolds. So with me, I have Kunal Kamath he is an engagement manager at McKinsey and Company. In his spare time, he loves the performance arts, crossword puzzles, and cultivating indoor jungle with the house plans in his Brooklyn apartment. And a Rahil is my younger one he is studying to earn his doctorate in clinical psychology at Rutgers University. He loves reading novels. He's an avid soccer fan. And much like his mom enjoys nerding out on all things psychology, and cognitive neuroscience. So welcome to the podcast. And I am so honored to have you both and very excited because I don't think we have done this before or have taken a deep dive in the conversation about the podcast itself. So thank you for joining me today.

Kunal Kamath: Yeah, thank you for having us. It's such an honor 200 episodes, I feel like I I wanted to use a and you know, one of those air horn sirens to commemorate when you when you said that earlier, but really, really happy to be here.

Rahil Kamath: It's amazing to be here and see it from the inside what it looked like to do this podcast, I was kind of expecting as soon as I joined to hear that music and the woman's voice introduced the podcast. But I realized that doesn't happen until after the production. So it's awesome seeing you in your element mom and, and being here as a featured guest. And until that point, Kunal and I were doing some talking, we thought it could be really cool to flip the script a little bit, switch it around, and you've been such a great interviewer to 199 previous guests. Why not have us be the interviewers for you for this 200th episode? So we came prepared with some questions that I don't know can all do you want to start us off?

Kunal Kamath: Yeah, let's do it. We just love to hear about kind of the journey of making this podcast, through your voice your words, for this commemorative 200th episode. And, you know, We of course know this, but your listeners may not write having this podcast is far from your full time job. You know, you're someone who juggles so much you run your own company, you raise us as children, you're very involved in local politics in your community. And I'm just curious, how do you see Full PreFrontal this contest fitting into that tapestry of all the things that you do? Right? How does it nourish and sustain you? And, you know, allow you to keep at it right, even when there's so much else going on in your life?

Sucheta Kamath: What a great question. And so thoughtful of both of you to kind of be so meta and think behind the peek behind the curtain. And it just got me thinking that first. First of all, I was involved. Since 2015, or '16, I've been involved in something called Interfaith Speaker's Network. And I've been collaborating with people on multiple faiths representing Hinduism, talking at in many spaces. And one such friend I met, who is a Buddhist friend, who also in his day job is in, you know, runs a business. And he introduced me to somebody who had a podcast. So this this friend of mine had a podcast and he said, Would you be a guest on my podcast? Because we have an overlap interest of spirituality and business. And and so I went to the studio, which is an off of Glenridge. And it used to be my old office, very interesting, but anyway, full circle. I sat in the studio with this amazing guy, who was a producer. And as soon as that interview got done, I said, podcast What about me doing a podcast and and so that was the seed of that thought, but I want to kind of rewind the time machine here for a second and for You know, in my career, attending a lot of continuing education or developing my mind, by really seeing a very broad picture of, you know, the business of changing people, like, you know, while you're in this going to be in this field of psychology, I'm in cognitive neuroscience, you know, cognitive rehabilitation. And one thing that I became very quickly aware that all the knowledge is not housed in one domain. And so for 15 years ago, 20 years ago, I started attending conferences that were not in my field. So I would go to see, you know, social psychology and personality conference and not know a single person, but I was so interested in the, they used to do like parallel strands about self. So they used to researchers who study the knowledge of self would have like a pre conference workshop for a whole day. And they would talk about self having multiple identities. Now, mind you, I haven't had zero training in psychology, so I wouldn't even understand but I was so interested in that, then I would go to cognitive neuroscience where people would cognitive neuroscientist who study a brain cells and activation and, and things that I would go in, attend those conferences and understand that all the networks go through prefrontal cortex. So I was beginning to get piecemeal information about the the way the brain networks information and how it influences behavior, thinking mindsets. I've also started attending conferences called contemplative studies. So contemplative studies is neuroscientists who are studying the impact of mindfulness and meditation on changing attention. Now remember, if you came from my field, and you were used to working with broken brains, and I say, broken brains in the sense, neuropsychological impairment, you always thought that attention can be improved with focus training, you never thought by focusing on your breath, you could improve attention, like that was considered voodoo, right. And again, remember, this was 15 years ago, and now we are living in breathing space of mindfulness having tremendous impact on not just cognition, but wellness. So anyway, long story short, one of the nerdiness that I have is when I go to a conference, I always sit in the front first for two rows. I always take notes. And I always go and say hello to the speaker, because I'm just so mesmerized by the way they approach their work, that over the years, I have known people I've gotten to know, you know, people. So like Russell Barkley, and I went and argued with him that his belief was you have to train ADHD in the point of contact. And I went and argued with him how it's not possible. And then we, he says, Who are you now, so I kind of told him like who I am. So what happened along the way it over last 10 to 15 years, I had gathered a deck of cards on all the people who had, I had no reason to ever meet them, or talk to them again. And so when this idea occurred to me after being a participant in the podcast, I said, I can do this. And I said, I'm going to ask these people a question. And I reached out to world famous researchers and thought leaders, and one such person I will mention who actually was at a TED event. And he is the world's renowned primatologist. And he happened to be I happened to be in the audience. In his a month before my podcast I launched and I said would you come on the podcast, and I had again gone and said hello to him. He agreed. So anyway, what I'm saying is, it's a combination of really great enthusiasm, a lot of long term effort in understanding complex matters. And lastly, making connections with people. So there you have it. And I'll say one more thing about that. So in my, I always have a notebook with me. And in my notebooks, I used to have a section. So any conference, I went, I would write the date, name of a person name of a session, and then gibberish like whatever they're saying. I think my way of processing information would write down things that I thought were important. But in the back, I would always have a section things to look up and things to transform. So my idea was, how would this apply to my work? So I had a section, how would this improve therapy? Because all 10-15 years that I went to a conference, I always would say, great in theory, does it work? What's the point like I would be in a session where a person has never worked with a patient with brain injury, but they're talking about the brain. And I would always say this doesn't work. All right. So I had this like things to look up so I can enrich my mind. But I also said, How does this become a therapeutic process that influences my work? So this idea and discipline and also organization of thought has been in crucial to really translating this work into something meaningful to people, at least that's been my vision.

Rahil Kamath: Yeah, I love that. And I will say, like, as an aspiring clinician, myself, like I'm, in my first year of a graduate program to become a clinical psychologist. I've learned things from your podcasts that I've been able to apply in real life. Like one thing that even comes to mind recently was listening to an episode on self compassion. I think it was Dr. Christine Neff, maybe. Kristin Neff? Yeah, Kristin Neff, excuse me. And just those kind of words of wisdom of how to be compassionate to yourself, and how that can expand into compassion for others, which really starts within I think that's something that I've taken to heart as a therapist, and I feel like I love your focus on not just nerding out on the research, but trying to bring on people who can help you talk about like, what will help us be better practitioners, better humans, better executive functionaries? I think that's so cool. I think that actually makes me think of like, like, what I was thinking next is, you know, call and ask and have a community original hopes how you felt like, Full PreFrontal can fit into your tapestry of your career. And I'm wondering how you see it blossoming. Over the past few years, you've come so far, the kind of like the network that you feel like you wanted to start with the cards, you've you've gone all the way to the end. Now, what's it been like to see it transform into what it is now? And was that what you expected to totally change what you thought was possible? Yeah.

Sucheta Kamath: Such a great question. And Wow. Um, so honestly, my, you know, when I started my journey, I had a very specific goal of explaining to people executive function is lot more than organization. People often say, Yeah, I'm not organized, or I don't manage my time. Well, and that's it. That's how people understand executive function. And that's such a disservice to the complexity of the the role executive function plays in one's lifetime. life outcomes. But secondly, I think, it's a story comes to mind when I was a child, I grew up with this folklore called Seven blind men and an elephant. You know, it was a story of just for practicality. You know, the these seven men had a blindfold, and they come to the palace, and the king has a new, beautiful creature called Elephant. And they all are very, very curious to understand what the elephant is, and, and so they come to a courtyard and they are asked to sit and they hear that there is the elephant is right around. So they all gather around this thing called Elephant and one touches the tail and says, Oh, elephant is like a snake. And the other one said, no, no, no, no, no, touches the leg and says the elephant is like a pillar. And the other one says, no, no, what are you talking about? It touches the ear and said the elephant is a fan. So all this is going on and uh, mayhem downstairs, and the prince is upstairs. And he watches these the plight of these seven blind men. And a he asks his, you know, Cena or his, you know, court men to blow like, you know, create heavy winds and then the blindfolds are opened up, and then they all the seven men see the elephant is all of it. Not one thing. And so this story is so, you know, dominates my mind a lot. When we think about executive function. That executive function is about focus. Is it about working memory isn't about problem solving is it about and it is so much more. And so people come to it by being blind with their blindfolds and my hope is that prefrontal will be their funding foundational resource where they can gather information, but I will say if you see those who kind of OG you know, who started with my podcast very earlier, I used to have the interview divided into two parts and publish two episodes. So I used to talk about what is it and how can we help and as time has gone by, I have changed the format and I do all of that consolidated into one section but, but what I also started doing is I feel like as I am the Interpreter of Maladies, I like to call so that means I am mostly like a patient advocate. So the doctor comes in a patient comes in, I can actually translate the language between each other. So I take the researchers and people who are experts, but they may have expertise in one aspect of it but as a clinician, I know the lifelong big picture and where the pressure points Sir. So in that way, I have changed my format. The second thing I would say I have changed is I used to be very, very specific with people who use the term executive function. Because then I'm like, Okay, I am talking to experts who know executive function is the area of expertise that they need to. But now since then I have really veered into psychology, social cognition, social psychology, anthropology, I have business experts, I have Daniel Pink, for example. So the reason to do that is there's something called wisdom and wisdom is what is universal language that is applicable to personal change. And the last thing I will say my hope is, in my, in my podcast series, I have two additional components. One is called big picture, where I am the only speaker who's summarizing some ideas and giving practical tips to people to listeners. And then the second is called ExFiles. So executive function ExFiles, so files was with clients that I have had my own clients who were open and willing. So I've had episodes with clients and their firsthand experience. So in that way, I've created a smorgasbord of opportunities for people to learn, grow, and pick and choose what they think will add value to them. But I'm also challenging people to not be so limited in thinking that all I need to know about executive function is this and nothing else. So that's why the seven blind men analogy.

Kunal Kamath: I love that anecdote mom about the elephant and the blind men. I mean, I feel that you are the queen in the castle who's blowing the wind and you know unburdening these men of their blindness. And the elephant is executive function. And the tail is anthropology, the leg is business, the trunk is psychology, right? There are so many things in our world in our life, that executive function, you know, is and kind of takes form in and what I want to hear what I'm curious about is as your life right, how have you seen executive function shaping your own personal life and journey and, you know, for example, one way it has shaped mine, although it's very hard to pinpoint this because it does feel like so interwoven into my, you know, my every day, you know, my everyday organizational skills and everything, right. But I feel like, you know, my kind of ability to problem solve is, you know, aided in great part by executive function, and not just the problems for, you know, for work or for when other people come to me with things to solve, right. It's, it's problems for myself, right? The hardest problems to solve that executive function has given me the toolkit, right to self interrogate to really understand why are those challenging for you, right? So for example, you know, I'm a terrible procrastinator, I'll save everything to the last minute, you know, I think I'll do a fine job. But I still, I still don't want to procrastinate nearly as much as I, as I do today. And, you know, I think executive function has given me the toolkit to test learn figure out right, why am I such a bad procrastinator? And what are some strategies? Right, that would work for me may not work for you route Hill may not work for you, mom, but But what works for me? And I think that actually, you know, I won't go into the minutiae of it. But right, that is actually executive function at work. And I think, and I'm so grateful that I think Mom, you have inculcated that in us. So I'm curious, right? I mean, maybe actually, before we ask Mom, do you have kind of, you know, a flavor for how executive function has mattered to you? Or, you know, made you who you are? Made you tick?

Rahil Kamath: Yeah, I mean, I think mom's gonna eat this one up, because I love her. Her I know, it's not a hard concept, but the one that she preaches a lot is the future self. And it just so accurate for how I think about life. It's such a delayed gratification person, I'm such a, you know, think of myself tomorrow kind of guy. And it comes out of big and small ways. Like, I think the most funny example, in a small way is like, ever since I was a kid, I don't know how this started. But I'm sure it has to do with mom, as I always laid out my clothes for the next day, like the night before, to save myself like that extra like five minutes and having to make a decision in the morning when I'm tired. And honestly, I still do it. And it still pays off every day. And I'm so happy about it. It's something that my girlfriend likes to poke fun of me for. But I still think it's great. And I think like, that plays out in big ways to like, I feel like I'm always taking a proactive approach to like, planning out my education or my career path or thinking about like, 1, 2, 3 years from now is my future self gonna think my current self and that that really guides me in a lot of ways. And so I have to say, I'm really grateful for that way of thinking because that just makes me feel so much more equipped to deal with the difficulties of life. So that one's for you, mom.

Sucheta Kamath: Well, it just warms my heart to know that first of all, look at Oh my god. This is the promise listeners that executive function skills are skills not It's and it just makes me so proud and happy that not only you're using the language to describe a process, and you really are walking and talking or talking proof of that processes are mastered through experience, exposure, practice and expert feedback. And the way I think about executive function foundationally my favorite way to conceptualize executive function is goal directed persistence. That means how do you persist to achieve the goals that you have crafted, designed and created for self by self, one of the most beauties in this definition is motivation. That means you're likely to achieve the goals that you have designed for you by yourself. And it's really a tall order to ask children to do that, because children are not yet masters of their destiny, but they need to help to know how to design good goals. And if you don't do that, then you're really going you become achievers, of tasks, you're doing things. But doing things is not goals. goal directed persistence is like when you say, I want to get in touch with Elizabeth, well, the job is not done until you are in touch with Elizabeth, you can say I left her an email sent her an email, or I called her and left her voicemail. That is not the goal, the goal is to actually get in touch with. And I see so much compromise in this area that people don't understand the simple definition of goal directed persistence, but the second part of executive function, and you captured it so well, coronella and rowhill. That there are barriers are to persist in achieving goals. And I think those who study the barriers are going to do two things, they're going to redesign the goals, or they're going to redesign persistence. And so procrastination, by the way, researchers say canal procrastination is never about time management. It is about pain management. So we procrastinate because we do not want to endure the pain of having to do whatever it is that we are trying to do. And so I always like to investigate. If this is a goal, then why am I not persisting? And second, is this a real goal? Or is it somebody else's goal, because that is the reason I'm not persisting so procrastination is simply a byproduct of that. And once I understand that framing, it is so helpful. And the second part of executive function, which is also kind of lost on people is, it's not just goal directed persistence, but it is having emotional agility, and working like an emotional ninja while persisting, because persistence requires effort. And effort is painful. And I think this is another, a very, you know, a lot of things that in my life have been shaped by my upbringing, my cultural bank context, and lack of resources. And I think just not having things was the reason you would actually not get to do things, right. I tell the, I was telling this story to a friend the other day that I went to college, and I really had this concept that my parents are very rich, primarily because they bought things like what they bought a dress on my birthday, I thought that's rich people do that. I did not realize that you. I mean, they saved money to buy that bought that and bought that dress. So when I came, a friend of mine, offered this opportunity and say, Hey, we are going to Singapore. And they were very wealthy people. And they said, if you want to join us, we can take you with with us on this trip. Mind you, I was like 18 And I was so excited, never been to a foreign country. And they said we'll take care of you. You just have to buy the ticket. And do you have a passport? And I had no idea what how you eat a passport or what goes into getting a passport back came home with you know, great, you know, lifted my feet and I came in as flip flop this question on my parents, you know, with my parents and I say hey, listen, I have an opportunity to go to Singapore, buy me a ticket. And when I heard it is going to cost three months salary for my dad to buy one ticket are they what report? Anyways, this is silly story. But what it told me that I thought persisting means really being doggedly going after a goal and removing all barriers. But in this case, it wasn't my persistence that really came into picture is the reality. So I think having reasonable expectations and adjusting your emotions, your attitude, your mindset, and not feel, you know, Mia culpa or woe is me, but really having a maturity to say, Wow, I did not know and adjusting my expectations, adjusting my goals. adjusting my mission is really something I have learned along the way and to some combination of both. So persist until you arrive at a goal. And if it's unattainable, you readjust, you redefine, and never give up. And don't think smaller view or the small of the goal. I did manage to get a passport, I did leave the country. I did do all that after I got a scholarship. But I really understood that day that I cannot achieve any goals of going anywhere, if there is no support of money. So do you understand what I'm saying? So anyway, that's my example of how practically I live live in that space.

Rahil Kamath: I love that I think like, one thing that you show us every day, is that goal directed persistence, like even in technology, like earlier question, like you do so many things, and you work within the realm of reality, you set reasonable expectations for yourself, but you never stopped persisting. And that, to me, is really admirable, and something that I feel like I want to emulate in my own life. So I think like you have shown us, not through your words, but moreso through your actions, how you live it, executive function every day. So that has been really meaningful to me. I do I do think that can all work curious about some kind of other topics, we could if we could shift gears even just like what the podcast has done for you, in terms of your own learning, you're obviously came into it being an executive function expert. But was there anything that you learned along the way in these 200 episodes, any guests, you spoke to any book, you read any sort of new concept that changed the way you thought about things changed, your worldview opened your eyes, you still think about it today about being like, Wow, I'm so glad that I read that book, or that guest came on my show, you know, anything that's like, you want to share with the listeners,

Sucheta Kamath: so many so many to list, I will say one of the most seminal influence of David Lancy. He is an anthropologist. And he has written hundreds of publications and has written multiple books. And one of the most interesting things that in his podcast I learned about, and he's written a brilliant book called Anthropology of Childhood. And one of the things that I had the concept of weird, which is a communities. So if you look at the the psychological research and Rahil, this is going to be very interesting for you as you go forth. And this is also my growth, I would say I was so focused on a client's patients, people in front of you. So I live here here in Atlanta. So I'm thinking about a small community of like 100 families that are maybe get a chance, over multiple years to serve, right? And that becomes my world. But guess I if I don't think about equity, or don't think about the context, then I will not even ask this question who comes to see me? I'm in private practice, right? So only those people who can afford me. So one of the things in his research, he talks about psychological research. Third, is studies 13% of world's population. What that means we are drawing these enormous conclusions, tiny, tiny, enormous conclusions about psychological behaviors, habits, and ways to influence theories on practicality based on data that's observed majority of that data is between college going kids on campuses, where they range from age 19 to 23. Right. And we're drawing conclusions. So in his particular research, he talks a little bit about agency of children. And you know, what does it mean to actually what does it mean to make children independent? And, and one of the anthropological viewpoint, he says, in countries like Africa, countries of Africa, African continent, there are ceremonies where children at age two are required to hold a knife and develop knife skills. They consider that independence. Can you imagine a two year old in America being asked to hold a knife and be considered as a skilled two year old, right? By six, you're fending for yourself, you're going and getting food. So I think this concept has really spoken to me that so much is context driven, and so much is affordability or access. So I really think we have in western world, remove the agency from children taking independent decisions, and we want them to become autonomous based on my rules. So I want you to be really, really good and smart and get good grades so that you can go to college that I think will be good for you. And so that has been a very different framework for me, that has influenced deeply in the way I think and the way I conceptualize independence.

Kunal Kamath: That's amazing. I love that example personally, because, you know, it shows that it's a true microcosm of this Full PreFrontal podcast, right, you are an expert practitioner, yet, you still have so much of your horizons to be brought in by the guests that you bring on, right? By kind of the, you know, the multitude of experience and kind of exposure that these other experts can bring you. And that kind of weird, right? How small that is, in the grand scheme of the world. Right. It's just a great kind of illustration of that. You know, I'm curious, you know, as well about, you are an expert, and you've had so, so many, you know, amazing, you know, academics, thought leaders, you know, clinicians the whole gamut, right? Has there been any one on or any topic, right, that you've kind of been exposed to through this journey that has really surprised you or challenged you in, you know, a conventional belief that you've held? That's kind of something I'm always curious about, as, you know, an expert like yourself, right. You know, it's true kind of growth, right, in kind of something that has actually changed your mind or, you know, surprised you. I'm curious if anything has come across your radar?

Sucheta Kamath: Oh, absolutely. And I think, again, you know, there's so many episodes to list, I do think that a one particular I had, you know, Horatio Sanchez, who is a poverty expert. And I, you know, in order to speak on this particular, in preparation, I always have a little story. So, I kind of gathered a little story about a young woman who had incredible life, disadvantages and painful life experiences early on, and how she rose above it. And she managed to go to a really, really important university, she managed to graduate from that summa cum laude. And then she wrote a book, and she now is inspiring people. So I was trying to frame in a very traditional way that if you have poverty, if you come from poverty, it's all about overcoming through resolve. So I was framing executive function in my own limited ways, that how can we get people to become a more of resolve? And he passed me? And he said, so check it out. But what about 99% of people who could not lift themselves up? Are we going to fault them for it? Or are we going to say, life's mission is to overcome poverty by myself. And it just made me pause because I was really so hung up on it, just like majority of the world does is we look at success stories. And we really celebrate success stories, because any non successful stories are boring, annoying or difficult to digest, right. And so we are really saying that there is an individual effort that really matters, there is nothing called collective effort, or there's no moral responsibility that we all have towards the betterment of all. And so when we think about executive dysfunction, it's so easy to call people lazy and call them incompetent and underdeveloped. And say I tried, I gave you resources. But the real process of developing executive function proficiency is because you're struggling, I will persist to help you. Not I personally, I gave you some opportunity, and you didn't take up on it. Hence, now too bad, you have executive function problems. So anyway, that has also shaped my thought process a lot. By the way, that has led me to, I've done series of presentations, in last two years, something called inverting the burden. This has been my framework of really thinking What responsibility I have in success of other people. And this, by the way, is also called a very complex executive function skill, which is called perspective taking and shifting your framework mentally and flexibly with the agility. And I have said, so one of the things I used to say, in my private practice, for example, before I created my software, and software, you know, designing the software was my commitment to this perspective shift. But I used to say, Well, I am available to provide help to all seek me if you want. So if you did not seek me, that's because you didn't want is my assumption, never suspected there are barriers that are integral to where my location is, what kind of charges I have, what kind of availability of my schedule for people who have three jobs, right? That was not my burden, that was their burden. So now when I say that when inverting the burden is who doesn't have access to me Is the burden on me not on them? That is true commitment to equity. 

Rahil Kamath: Yeah, to me that only further speaks to your executive function skills, I love that you sort of snuck in that little importance of perspective taking, because due to your own strength in shifting perspectives, and looking for disconfirming evidence and challenging your own beliefs, who were able to, I think, and I've seen this personally really, you know, grow as a person of like how you think about equity, think about justice, thinking about providing services to those most in need, and doing that on a really wide scale, which I think is a big, you know, purpose and passion for excute, as well, like, that's kind of what your whole company is strives to do. So I think it's cool that you're able to use perspective taking as a way to make that happen. Because it's also really easy to have a podcast where you bring on a bunch of guests, you say, what's your piece, and then you call it a day, but you really allowed them to influence you, which is, I think, unique, and speaks to you.

Sucheta Kamath: You know, I was gonna add one thing that if you really have strong executive function, you begin to demonstrate elevation of self. And and if there was a, this morning, I heard a podcast and this was a journey, evolution of human human evolution. And he says it's Imagine watching a one hour movie. And and, you know, the fully developed prefrontal cortex appears in last 30 seconds of the one hour movie, you know, so I think it's such a new set of skills, but with that elevation, it is the backbone of moral development, it is the backbone of doing right when doing the right thing is hard to do. It is backbone of justice seeking. And it is backbone of relentlessness. When justice is not achieved, it is the is the backbone of apology, it is the backbone of considering yourself less important or less. A better way to say it, considering other people equally important to having a share of happiness. And so the three particular skills that really speak to me that if you have strong executive function skills, you wouldn't be showing great focus and prospective memory and problem solving and critical thinking and, you know, self control, but you will be showing moral behaviors. And they look something like this patience, self effectiveness, that means humility, and great joy, in the work that you do that that's described as pride. So you have you're proud of your contributions, you do things in absence of anybody watching and evaluating you. Like it's like the way I clean my kitchen counter, when I don't have guests. That's, that's the kind of thing the way I close my umbrella outside before I come into the office, so it doesn't drip. That is the kind of little things that you pay attention to. That's how highly developed executive function skills. Look, this is when you don't try to impress anybody for the sake of impressing its you become it. And that's the beauty of becoming a better human being, so to speak.

Kunal Kamath: I, I love that because you're actually kind of teeing up a question that I had, which was, you know, I'm not sure if it's tied to this kind of root part of executive function that gives you that, you know, true character of it performing at your peak, even when no one's watching or kind of doing it not not for the sake of pride or your ego. I'm not sure if that is the motivating factor. I'm not sure if it is, you know, your spirituality, which I know is a big part of who you are. And this is the motivating factor. I'm not sure if it's this concept of goal directed persistence that we talked about earlier. But, you know, a question that I had was, you know, I know that you know, right prefrontal, Full PreFrontal may not have, you know, New York Times critical acclaim may not have the big...

Sucheta Kamath: Why not is the question. 

Kunal Kamath: But I'm curious, right. I'm someone who would be much more discouraged, I think, than you at kind of that, you know, lack of immediate instant gratification of oh, people are attached to this people are clinging to this and, you know, it gives me that fuel to keep going I'm, you know, love the performing arts. So quite literally, you know that that applause is a dopamine hit that I seek right when I'm on stage. But I'm curious, can you speak to you know, that your attachment to the success for this podcast, right, what, how, I guess has your attachment or the lack thereof, kept you motivated to keep going when when others may not have right I'm curious what what you see as having driven you right forward, is it Spirituality is at the School Direct executive function just generally. And I'm curious, your kind of mindset there, I'm sure there's some wisdom that, you know, others, I think would really, really benefit from.

Sucheta Kamath: Well, I mean, such a good question. And I really wonder, you know, we have the I have this amazing producer, Evienne Ellickson, who, without her, I would not be able to do anything. And I probably think that she, she shocked that I have not quit and folded so I'm wondering myself. So a couple of things that come to mind. One is I didn't start a podcast to monetize on the on the podcast, I'm so ill equipped, honestly, to know how to do that anyways. So that's one thought. But the second thought is, I'm so convinced that people need good information. And I have created good information, and they can consume it at their own pace. One of the nicest things about podcasts is if they these people discover it, they can go back and listen to something it's not a one time thing. You don't I mean, you guys are too young to even remember the days when you went to a lecture and you heard and you're like, what this is it, I can never hear you again, ever. You know, Antonio Damasio is one of my favorite neuroscientists who I haven't had on my podcast yet. But I was in the audience at Harvard University, you know, 25 years ago, and I went and said hello to him, you know, Ken, just as a thing that I do. But what I was just thinking that he's never gonna remember me. I don't even remember exactly what he said. But it was so profound. I remember it being profound, but I have no ways to know what the heck it was, right? So I feel like the podcast platform are this kind of recording is something that people can revisit or something. Second thing is, somebody can re listen and learn. Again, so I feel optimistic about that. But more importantly, you bring up spirituality. And this is such an important aspect of my personal growth in last 14 years, you know, you you both know that I'm an ardent student of Bhagavad Gita, which is a it's a deep philosophical, spiritual guidebook for every hindu. And one of the things I'm learning about that is something called Karma Yoga, which is you do, you take actions with great fidelity, a commitment, and resolve so that you are committed to the best results. However, the results is not what your action determines. Results may or may not be favorable. And so that principle has really spoken to my heart. So I feel creating a podcast is is my goal, having phenomenal team who encourages me and allows me to do this. And again, I am so grateful to my guests. They agree, I have no idea why they agree. So they are there. But then I also know that success, you know, there's so much chatter all around us. And what speaks to people it's a very nerdy podcast, you know, there's a lot of information. It's about change. It's not entertainment, it's not juicy, like gossip. So I understand I'm competing with that space, but my purpose and intention is different. So I'm okay that it will speak to few. In spite of that we have crossed 1 million listener view listening listenership. We are being heard in 110 countries or more. And so those kinds of things give me joy. But we were such dummies, we didn't even track listenership until I became aware that oh, you can track listenership I didn't know. So anyway. So that's where the production level is, we are very Mom and Pop joined, you know, with amazing quality, but not great performative aspect to it, and I'm okay with it. Because this is not my, I'm investing money here, but I'm not getting any returns, because that's not the goal. This is a resource. I want teachers, educators, parents, psychologists, you know, social workers, everybody to have access to some understanding about executive function, and speech pathologist, of course.

Rahil Kamath: And you're doing work that is really, I think, pushing the boundaries and a lot of good ways. Like, even in my own education in the program I'm in we're, we're learning a lot about executive function and its role and how to assess for it and just becomes more and more clear to me how executive function is so necessary for every function. And I, you know, the patients that we see in the clinic that I work in, they may be having challenges with anxiety with depression, other other things, but all the time, there's something up with executive function, and I'm like, wow, she was saying she was speaking the gospel all along. I think that I think that really is a resource mom, and you're chasing your passion, which we've seen since we were kids how much you value and love your work and makes me think, you know, what advice do you have for your listeners who do you inspire every day to other people of how can they chase the passion that you did and build something like this podcast that can serve as a resource for others? Like, what does that look like to do in the context of having a business? Having a family having life responsibilities, but still you persist? What does that look like? How can you inspire others for that?

Sucheta Kamath: You know, can you capture my, the essence of my kind of what takes me in the beginning, you said curiosity, I have deep, deep curiosity. And I think that curiosity translates into great interest in people and things. There's a you know, you both know that I'm a big fan of contemporary arts and arts in general speaks to my heart. Art is one of the ways we express our intelligence, but also create something that will tease other people's intellectual in know desires and, and On Kawara is one of my favorite, favorite contemporary artists, I think I've talked to you both about that. And Rahil, we went to Venice Biennale. And we saw his work, one of the things that he talks about, so I'm interested in passage of time. And if you look at life, it's all about passage of time journey through passage of time, you know, you can be aware of passage of time, or you can be unaware of time, but time doesn't stop. And I'm very, his work really captured all the things that I have thought about. So, for example, he published one of his art pieces called 12 years. So he mailed postcards where I am. And for 12 years, he mailed postcards 12 years, show me one thing that even brushing your teeth, like there may be some days people may have waste, which so when I started working with executive function, one of the biggest problems I saw when people had executive dysfunction is their unwillingness to create habits and to stick with them. They just didn't see any appeal. And they wanted big returns for small actions. So I don't want to brush my teeth unless I have a threat of my teeth falling, or my teeth are beautiful. Well, no, you don't question. It is only preventative right? So every single thing if you look at executive function is about preventative aspects of you, you organize yourself now. So tomorrow's you will be so relieved that you don't have to start packing right before you take a flight. Right? So So one thing that as I think about the what I want people who are listeners and people who are interested in self optimization is it is not about becoming proficient. So you have free time. I think it's really about getting lost in the work that you do because you love it. And I do not consider I am, you know what they say look around and give the job to the busiest person. If I tell people the things I most often don't talk about this, but you know, you know this that I serve on, I'm on two major boards, I am a founder and president of one another nonprofit, I'm, you know, I, I have a like a side bar of art, like I love to do like my brother's turning 60. And so I created some art piece. And I love to organize and plan and create some events and activities. And we are big family that plans. So I want listeners to understand that dreaming is amazing. But you do not need to land a dreaming, you need to really live in your dream land. And I think that is not possible. Without goal directed persistence. And I think too often I'm seeing people spend too much of their time thinking about making it big. Nothing, you know, it's like, you know, we say like, right, how do you eat an elephant, one bite, one bite at a time. So how do you become big is doing every small thing? Well, so I really like that thought process that if you want to make an impact on the world, which should be the priority, that every single thing you do matters. And doing it well is more important than doing a lot.

Kunal Kamath: That's amazing mom and so many like great lessons in there for our listeners to kind of take away. But I mean, for me, it's the concept of patience, perseverance, goal directed persistence, the idea that it is these incremental gains that you should not be expecting this immediate instant gratification, but you know, find that joy in the journey in the process. And then over time, you will look back and say, you know, wow, like, how did I grow so much? Right? I know we told told you about this earlier, I kind of have been doing some volunteering with New York City Parks Department and going up to you know, the Bronx Pelham Bay Park and like pulling weeds in the forest basically. And I asked that kind of, you know, Volunteers, the kind of leaders, they're of the projects that, you know, you know, you come come here every year, and you do the same thing, like, you know, is this really doing anything for the forest? And they're like, You wouldn't believe it. But you know, of course, you know, you pull weeds in the spot, and they'll grow back. But, you know, you do this 10 years, 15 years, 20 years. And, you know, the this kind of one space that we're in now would have looked so different. How have we not been here? persevering? Right. And it's like that is to me what executive function is, it's the kind of pulling the weeds in your mind, right in the corner is recesses of your mind to cultivate that, you know, the garden that can then bloom right? In your brain. So I mean, just so many great, great lessons. And I'm hoping kind of people look like tickled pink, a lot of amazing stuff away from this conversation. No, we're running up on time. So I want to start you know, and speaking of time, want to start thinking about the future and talking about the future. And I'm curious, right, we've kind of teased at it. But we haven't really talked about, you know, all the things that you do, and you just mentioned these boards that you're on and whatnot. But a big, big, big thing, of course, is ExQ, the company that you've started, you know, I'm curious kind of how you see this podcast, and ExQ in conversation, right? Do you at all see, as you look ahead, right to the future, you know, Full PreFrontal converging at all with with excu. Do you see these as separate projects? I'm curious with someone who is like you such a polymath, so kind of involved in so many things. And so kind of, you know, in Renaissance woman, right, like, I'm curious kind of how you see these two big projects that you've been working on for so long? I'm coalescing down down the road?

Sucheta Kamath: Yeah, such a great question. And I know I'm also sorry, listeners, sorry, if I'm going on and on. But thank you for that question. So ExQ is also a passion project. And it's 100% digital platform that I have created to teach children, how to learn to learn, and how to think about their thinking. And it is designed to be implemented in schools. As a curriculum, we begin with an assessment of nine areas of cognition and executive function. And based on that profile, it personalizes learning and training and skill development for every single child. So I'm on a mission, that number one, that we do not believe in the framing of executive dysfunction, and wait till it becomes a dysfunction because every single person must learn how the self management works. So when when I talk about executive function, it is how I manage my goals, how I manage my emotions, how I manage my relationships, how I manage my task, time, space, and finally, how I manage the the safety and security and flourishing of my future self. So we are managing these things, we are not managing tasks. I hate when people say I'm managing and making my bed, no, you're managing the emotional state of you at night, who returns in bed and feels so relieved to see a beautifully made bed waiting for you. Because the past self was kind, generous, and thoughtful to take care of you. So I think about that. So executive function, ExQ platform is created to to teach this to all children. And second is I want to transform education, I want to create something called executive function, culture, a culture where pausing, stopping, reflecting, to think about self with a as an agent of your life and thinking about something that is intangible such as your future. Do you know how profound it is to realize that you will never meet your future self? And every single thing you're doing is for that to future self? who is a stranger? And what kind of life will we be leading if we never invest that kind of time to understand the emotional, psychological, cognitive state of that future self. So that's what the ExQ platform is all about to have this access to the specialized training that I have spent 2030 years doing to bring that so and the way I see podcast and ExQ, preparing, you know, I'm a voracious reader, I read one or two books a week. One of the things that I want is it is impossible for people to see relationship between their expertise to executive function, because they may not consider executive function. When when I you know, interviewed Frans de Waal, who is a primatologist, I mentioned Times named him as the most one of the most one of the 100 influential people in the world. And he said, I don't know what executive function is. And so I did talk about future prospection In, in the primates that he studies and empathy and compassion that we see in animals are primates that humans have. And so he says, oh, that's what you call executive function. So you see what I mean. So people may be doing the work without calling the labels. But when we think about teaching children, I want these elements of training that need to be seeping in, you can tell a child to be kind, because you know what they do, they're kind to their kind of people. So true kindness is to be to kind to everybody, particularly when they're not like you. So excu is designed with that thought in mind. And this podcast is a resource for every person who will be using ExQ to teach executive function in their classroom.

Rahil Kamath: You can just I don't know if listeners of the podcast can but we can just feel and see kind of, like, your enthusiasm and deep love for this project. It's, it's so clear how much you want to touch people's lives and change education, I think in a really fascinating way. That shows that this executive function, which I think when we were kids, gonna be 1520 years ago, was met very little, very little people. And now, everything, and I think that's so important, I think, I love the question called asked also because the podcast brings an awareness to the public that I think excu is trying to sort of actualize on podcast gives the information in the excuse, like, well, here's how it's done. And I think that's really cool. And I, I hope that the listeners of the podcast can take that and roll with it and see how they've applied their own lives, because you can only grow so much from learning about executive function. And I think that, that leads us to our last question, which is just, you know, your hopes for the future. You know, what's, what's next for these next 200? episodes? And more or less? I don't know if you know, it's completely up to you. I mean, the question that you always ask your, your guests, so we thought would be fun to ask you, as you know, what are your influences? What are you reading? What's going to shape you going forward? And maybe even, you know, teasing some future guests that you have in mind? So

Sucheta Kamath: Listen, have you considered starting a podcast? Both of you? No, just kidding.

Rahil Kamath: We would never shout at you like that.

Sucheta Kamath: Well, a couple of things. It's so interesting. You know, I started my podcast in 2017. So here we are 200th episode. And believe it or not, people have moved on, and people have achieved next year's tear of their own achievement. So I am doing round two with many of my guests, who whom I interviewed for their previous book, who are coming back with their new book. So nobody's fool is a book that is coming out in a couple of weeks, with, you know, neuroscientist, Christopher Chabris. And a Dan Simon's who came on my podcast earlier with for their Invisible Gorilla book. So that, so I'm, I'm going to have Hal Hershfield, who is my hero in future self, who published a book, I interviewed him and had been following his research for last 15 years. But I interviewed him when he had not written a book. So I'm going to have him back. So one of the directions that I want to take is really interesting people having very influential role to play in the way we think about life. So take example of, you know, Gregg Behr and Ryan Rydzewski came on my podcast, they have written a book called When You Wonder, You're Learning, it was Mr. Rogers, and during lessons for raising creative, curious and caring kids. So I'm, I see a great potential of bringing people who have done a given a thought about people who have managed to improve executive function, but they are not scientist. And they will not even Mr. Rogers. To me, I don't even know how to describe him. He's everything that every teacher needs to become so so I see the future in that way. And as I answer your last question, in closing, what am I reading? So I've been preparing a lot about how people change their mind. So two authors I'm reading right now is Adam Grant, and his book, Think Again. And David McRaney, his book, which is How Minds Change. So because I believe executive function means stopping to self reflect, and during your self reflection, you discover what you are not. And then developing emotional bandwidth to accept you're not all that you thought, and then taking steps to consult experts. So the biggest mistake I see or a lost opportunity people never missed the opportunity is they don't want to pause to think who they are not because it's very painful, but they also are so busy claiming to be all that that they never seek experts help. So I'm very interested in seeing what's the psychological and emotional and cognitive mechanisms that make people not think again. And the second two other books I'm reading, as you know, I read a lot is Dancing With Life is Philip Mofitt I am on a path, a spiritual path and one of the things this book is about four noble truths and really understanding relationship to suffering. So I am deeply committed to understanding myself as a person as I handle my disappointments, annoyances of other people or just hardship. I won't I'm not all for success, but I'm quite quick to disappoint get disappointed if, after hard work didn't pay off. So I have little attitudes. So I'm working on that. And the last thing is, of course, Matthew Desmond's book Poverty by America. And so I'm really committed to equity. I never thought I would be a person who has anything to offer to life's solutions. I thought, I have a lane. I'm a therapist, I'm a, you know, I work with people when they have trouble. Maybe I help people in education, but I never thought I have any say, in the matters of policy, and changing destiny for people and I have come to understand that until and unless I develop my deep knowledge and understand barriers, the power decreases, I cannot really change anything. So that's what I'm doing.

Kunal Kamath: Well, I mean, I think, Mom, what a treat, you know, I know. You can always call us and we'll have a you know, begrudging pick up the phone and say how our day was, but this is, you know, something I want to do every week if I could, right. Just kind of get to really hear from you. You know about your, your journey. And your where you're, where you were, where you're heading, and where you were coming from and where you're heading to. Right. It's just really just been amazing to kind of hear it from, from your voice. So thank you.

Sucheta Kamath: Thank you, everyone, for tuning in. And thank you, Kunal, thank you, Rahil, for being incredible children, incredible partners in this journey are looking at you to both and getting a chance to talk to you gives me such a great sense of joy. Because you came with your independent mindset and you came with your incredible warmth, as well as brilliance and your humility and kindness is really something I deeply admire. And I of course, see a huge thumbprint of your dad on both of you. So I'm grateful to have my my young self, my current self, thanks, bye young self, to have a wisdom to find a partner and who was so aligned in so many ways and to see those qualities in you gives me great joy. It was hardly any work to raise you because you came wired to listen. So I deeply appreciate that. And Alright, listeners, that's all the time we have for today. As you can see, these are important conversations. Thank you for hanging out with me for 200 episodes. It's an incredible journey. And I could not do this without you. I personally thank each and every one of you for being a listener and your generosity of time. I know you have so many choices. But hanging out with us at Full PreFrontal is means a lot. And lastly, I do want to thank Evie, Evienne Ellickson, our incredible esteemed producer. Without her I would be nothing. So once again, thank you and stay tuned until we come back again next time on Full PreFrontal.