Ep. 203: Maggie Jackson - Gift of Uncertainty

Sucheta Kamath: Welcome back to Full PreFrontal: exposing the mysteries of executive function. I'm your host Sucheta Kamath, I believe we are on a mission to find a the most appropriate and invigorating ways to connect neuroscience psychology education. And in fact, take all that knowledge to impact the way we live the way we interact with each other and maybe even create communities and society where everybody gets to thrive. So this podcast, as I have told you many times is fueled with this mission to really help everybody understand the value and importance of executive function. executive function is one is a set of skills we use to manage our thoughts, emotions, and actions in accordance with changing environment and challenging times, particularly environment that induces uncertainty, and to achieve the goals that we have created for ourselves by ourselves. So I always like to say executive function is not what we are thinking because it's invisible, not what we're feeling because it also may be intangible, but the way we act or take actions or inactions. And as we think about the conversations we had with experts on this podcast, what excites me is the experts bring this most unique and informative perspectives that will hopefully change our minds so that we too, can become better agents of our executive functions. So today, it's a great joy and delight to have one of my favorite journalists, and somebody who have, I have had the pleasure of interviewing before. And Maggie Jackson, and this is her book, can't wait to dive deep into it. She's an award winning author, journalist, and a thought leader with a global reach a her new book, Uncertain, which is what we're going to talk about the wisdom and wonder of being unsure. I love the fact that she has used the word wandering it, because I hope you're picking up on that, that we're going to talk a lot about developing a different relationship with uncertainty that explores why we should seek not knowing in times of flux. It's been nominated for a National Book Award, uncertain has been named a Best Book of 2023 by Library Journal, and the Next Big Idea Club. Congratulations, Maggie, and welcome to the podcast. 

Maggie Jackson: Thank you so much Sucheta, it's really nice to be back.

Sucheta Kamath: So I know we're going to dive deep into first defining uncertainty, because it may sound very obvious, but maybe helpful to set the framework. But I was going to give you a quick example, a few weeks ago, you know, my friends, I have a lot of family in India and friends in India as well. And there was a massive a storm in Chennai, which is the eastern coast of India, and where my lot of my friends and colleagues and your partner's live. And the interesting thing was, it was not only a massive storm, but the very means of communication, which is electricity had been wiped out. So no internet, no electricity, and no way of knowing how things are going. And it kind of, you know, sitting pretty in a western world of us, this kind of thing, you know, you have a power generator, things go back to normal, you hardly feel any pinch. It was very stressful to not know what what's going on. It took three days before any news came my way. And that was kind of the close encounter of recent of uncertainty. So I know so I would love to know, first. You know, you talked about distracted, which is the book you had. And we talked a lot about focus as a primary, you know, participating in the attention economy. I wanted to see if you can tell our listeners, what was your reason to talk about uncertainty. What did you notice in the culture and in our vein that you felt the need to address that? 

Maggie Jackson: Sure. Yeah. No, that's a great question. When I finished my book, distracted, which is all a course about the erosion of attention in society, but also the science of attention, different types of attention we can utilize to become better thinkers. I was left with a question which, which is when we can muster a moment's focus skillfully? Well, then what do we do with it? And of course, the obvious answer is to think, you know, attention and thinking go hand in hand. So I set off to write a book about the skills that we need the cognitive skills that we need most in a digital age, and what are we losing? What are we gaining, etcetera? Well, the first chapter of that book was about uncertainty. And I really thought that I could just sum up uncertainty and investigate it in one chapter. Well, that wasn't the case, I was, I was quite wrong. And as I was actually delving into the topic of skepticism, and doubt, and daydreaming, and all sorts of, you know, different types of uncertainty, I found that there was a incredible wave of new scientific research related to uncertainty. So in essence, this, you know, the state of not knowing had been kind of neglected in Psych psychology and medicine and business, etc, as not being useful. And so my these risks, the research really fascinated me, and I felt as though we in our society, truly misunderstand, or we don't really understand what uncertainty is how it works, you know, how we can utilize it, how we can do so skillfully on a daily level. And, and I'll also add that I believe that we are perilously not utilizing uncertainty, because we live in a culture that's very certainty oriented, we're very outcome oriented, we walk into business meetings, you know, with the answer upfront, and then try to see which answer wins. And our phones are called certainty seeking devices by psychologists because they dispense these little neat, constant instant answers. And then we are left without much experience of understanding the space between the question and the answer. And that's what I was trying to investigate.

Sucheta Kamath: I love that. And I think, you know, I've been thinking a lot about, particularly raising children and educating them. And in these modern times, you know, the, the culture has this imbibed this belief that talent and success is measured with an attitude of invincibility, which is captured with, with a firm disposition, that be fast, be right and be without a doubt. And then don't trust anything, which is another new development, I feel like I have no doubt, and then be full of skepticism, you know, so I don't know how that sits with the CIO, there is a definite kind of tug there, about about that. So with with that, setting the stage why you chose to talk about uncertainty, and the timing could not have been more, you know, particularly next year, we are going into elections. And I think everybody is sitting with a deep sense of uncertainty. And that may make us inactive. So how do you define in the book, what an uncertainty is?

Maggie Jackson: Yes, that's a very important question to start with, because we often utilize this word without quite knowing how to define it. So really, scientists and experts generally think that there are two types of uncertainty. First, there's the uncertainty, you know, we see this in the headlines, uncertainty Royals, the markets, you know, the uncertainty is making, you know, et cetera, et cetera. And that's really a shorthand for the unknown for what humans can't know. You really cannot know whether the electricity will be turned on, in your, you know, family's house in India, a week from Tuesday or not. But generally, humankind for hundreds of years has at least one game at what generally humankind for hundreds of years has gained a kind of a toehold into understanding the uncertainty through using probabilistic reasoning and mathematical strategies, etc. So we gain an understanding of likelihood. You know, it's there's a 30% chance it'll rain next Tuesday, but we don't really know. And then hand in hand with this is a second type of uncertainty called epistemic uncertainty, that is our psychological uncertainty. And, and that that's really the human response to the unknown. So when you know, on a very simple level, come up against a traffic jam or sort of a stranger in a dark alley. You are meeting with something new, unexpected, ambiguous. And that's the moment when you as a human, realize that you've reached the end of your limits of your knowledge, you don't know. And it could be this it could be that it's not ignorance, but you're just uncertain and that is a What I'm writing about the human response to the unknown. And that's a very unsettling feeling.

Sucheta Kamath: Yeah, and I think it's I love the distinction there. Because the by design and by nature, humans are not going to know, like, the whole future is unknowable. You can predict predicting is not same as knowing, and it is unfolding live. That means you didn't know. And then you knew, but then again, the next moment, you will not know. So I think it's the static state of life if people just take a moment to think about it. But I do love the distinction that talking about this the epistemic uncertainty, where how do I relate to not knowing? And how do I question my not-knowing-ness? So let's kind of talk a little bit about this next question, then, you know, uncertainty is innately unsettling. And is it because we want to feel that there's finite nobility like, to me, that's why I, when we were chatting before the interview, I said, this is much more philosophical book, I find, in addition to the scientific book, but it's more like giving us an opportunity to ponder about life's big questions. So tell us a little bit about this idea that, that's called learning when you don't know something you seek. And that's called learning. But as you're learning, you'll also realize, Oh, dang it, I did not know. And that can make you feel really bad. And so you're constantly on a roller coaster of knowing, not knowing, feeling good, feeling bad, and saying, Oh, I made a mistake. So to me, this is a journey of being a really alive human being. But a lot of people don't like that. 

Maggie Jackson: Yes, no, no, exactly. You're putting your finger right on some of the most important starting points or basic blocks of uncertainty. So I've talked about uncertainty as as our human response to the unknown. There are many rising unknowns now rising unpredictability and climate in economics and geopolitics, etc. But the question is, how will we respond. And I mentioned also that we are unsettled by uncertainty. That's because in a nutshell, for survival sake, humans need and want answers, just like many other living organisms. And so when we reached the under the idea that we when we realize we don't know, we are anxious or uneasy, and that's because we have a stress response. So again, this all makes sense, you know, when you meet something new, you have a kind of stress response. And in fact, that traffic jam you meet up with or the idea that the volcano will expand, explode on the neighboring island, next Tuesday, etc, that actually might make your heartbeat or your palms, sweat, etc. But it's also going to change your brain in remarkably positive ways. This is sort of surprising, I think, to people. But when you meet a moment of uncertainty, your focus widens, your working memory is bolstered, and your brain actually becomes chemically more receptive to new data. So one neuroscientists told me, that's the moment when your brain is telling itself, there's something to be learned here, which is, which is exciting. That's actually the time as uncomfortable as it is, when you are given an invitation to learn. So I call uncertainty, a kind of wakefulness. And many scientists call it good stress. And so if you can see if you are cut short, that opportunity to learn, if you cancel on the first date, because, oh, it's going to be awkward, and you're going to feel uncomfortable, and it's all new, and ooh, I don't know what's going to happen, well, then you are retreating from an opportunity to live at the edge of your knowledge. And there's another really important point to this, which is, it's not all innate, it seems, you know, stress responses, etc, seem very unconscious. But there is a deliberate conscious component, the human is actually somewhat in charge of their uncertainty response. So for instance, in laboratory settings, when people are playing games, in highly predictable situations, the rules are constantly changing. There are times when they just don't know. People who lean into uncertainty, that means they're more stressed when things are more unpredictable, are the ones who are most accurate. And so they are actually, there's a little sweat equity involved with uncertainty. There's a little bit of rolling up your sleeves cognitively and being willing to lean into it. And in fact, CEOs who are ambivalent in a crisis are actually the people who are more risk resourceful and innovative. And what that tells me is that they are waking up to uncertainty as unsettling it as is. But then they are taking up that invitation to learn to want, you know, to try to understand multiple perspectives to try to think different through different options. They're really harnessing uncertainty. And it's a very positive and exciting thing. Again, as unsettling as it is.

Sucheta Kamath: So I see a such a great connection to executive function, as you mentioned, because it to activate solution mindedness or thinking about a way out or way forward, requires you to activate your executive central executive control, to create a plan, organize yourself, see, forge a pathway and to execute that. And as I'm thinking about that, also, a great poem comes to mind by Ellen bass, which said, What would people look like if we could see them as they are soaked in honey stung, and swollen, reckless, pinned against time? I mean, I think that's how, like, the bashing of you know, coming together, living a very complicated life means facing uncertainty on an every single day. So I love the way your book is organized. So one study that I really isn't one of my favorite studies, if you couldn't speak to, was this study where they showed pictures of cats and dogs, ever they made a change to the cat image slowly so that it metamorphosized into a dog? Can you share that experiment? And I would love to kind of tell our listeners a little bit about that experiment and what we learned about what happens to people when they seek certainty. 

Maggie Jackson: Right, no, exactly. Well, in the 1940s, as the world and and 50s the is because people psychologists were beginning trying to understand the roots of the great wars that had just occurred, and how why people fell in with authoritarian dictators, etc. There was a scientist in California psychologist, Elsa Frankel Brunswick. And she did studies that are, are very pertinent to each individual response to uncertainty. So we as humans, respond to uncertainty. And yet we also have a personal kind of comfort zone, when it comes to meeting up with the new and the unexpected. So Frankel Brunswick actually gave pictures very simple experiment, people didn't really know what there was being studied, they just thought it was a test of perception that they were shown a series of pictures of a cat that in with each picture, the cat's ears and the muzzle and the body changed. And so it began to look like kind of a lap dog, little dog, and it really did morph into a dog. And they had to just simply say, whether each picture was a cat, or was it a dog, people who are really tolerant of intolerance of uncertainty, had a lot of trouble ever seeing that the dog was changing, they just wanted to see that it was a cat, cat, cat, cat, cat. And she said that, you know, people who are intolerant of uncertainty, wouldn't leave the safe harbor of their definite ideas. They didn't want to move into, you know, the world of transition and liminal, etc. And I think that's really important because this personal comfort zone, this disposition of how, you know, tolerance, or intolerance to uncertainty is something it's kind of like introversion and extraversion. You know, there are extremes. But, you know, a lot of introverts might be shy, but they're, you know, they're not reclusive. They might be we might be extroverted, but they still might be shy on a certain day. So there is a lot of mutability and change here. But we all do have this comfort zone. And it's really important to kind of understand that, for instance, our tolerance for uncertainty is affected, for instance, by situations, such as when you're tired, or you're suffering, information overload, you're more likely to drive to just want that quick answer and, and that you know, to kind of cut short, the ability to harness your uncertainty and explore the space of, of possibility that uncertainty offers you. So it's really important to understand our own personal approaches and attitudes to uncertainty. And this has a tremendous amount of implications and people who are highly intolerant of uncertainty, dislike surprises. They're more rigid thinkers, as we can see from the cat dog experiments, they're less likely to try new things. And they just are no see changing their mind as a kind of defeat. Whereas people who are more tolerant of uncertainty are more likely to be, excuse me curious, people who are tolerant of uncertainty and more likely to be curious, flexible thinkers, who maybe, you know, thrive visiting a country where they don't speak the language, at cetera, and they're more likely to see others perspectives. That's important.

Sucheta Kamath: You know, this reminds me of my experience as a clinician for last 25-30 years that when people endured concussions and brain injuries, one of the a mark of brain injury is a rigidity, cognitive rigidity, and affective lability. That means you laugh for no reason you cry for no reason. And you are extremely rigid. So and which is the precursor to that is concrete thinking. And, and there are a lot of developmental disorders that create that affect the maturation or delays the maturation of prefrontal cortex causing this excessive rigidity. And now that I am a CEO, and and running a business, it's been such an interesting shift in my observation in last five years, that as a clinician, I used to have people seek help for their rigidity and flexibility. And people around them are saying, oh, yeah, their brain that, you know, they, they got hit on the head, they become very concrete and rigid. And then now I am in society. And, and I like to call it to category categories of people diagnosed and undiagnosed, but there are people who have not had, or at least I don't know anything about their history, but they behave as if they have had a concussion, like very rigid concrete. And, and contrarian, you know, full of doubt, and they kind of blocked the progress, because they are unwilling to sit with this muck of uncertainty. Because imagine, like, all the rooms that we are in where we're coming to conclusions about how to, let's say, spend money, how to allocate priorities, or how to think about a solution, you need everybody to be together in the space of uncertainty. So I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about that dynamics that? How does individual uncertainty versus the collective uncertainty? How does that appear?

Maggie Jackson: Yes, no, the world I, there are multiple different kinds of what I call, you know, social sides to uncertainty. And for instance, uncertainty is absolutely mandatory, if you're going to engage with someone whose politics you disagree with, or someone you hate or loathe. The starting point for even seeing their humanity is on, you know, having a looser set of assumptions basically, not being as sure, as you are about the fact that, you know, they're stupid, or their politics are stupid, or what have you, we have to kind of jostle are, and one way we can do this is through something called perspective taking, that's a very simple strategy. That is just involves cognitively trying to see the world through another person's point of view. And that sort of perspective taking you try to imagine what it's like to be someone a very different racial makeup or someone who's a refugee, etc. It has incredible implications so that if you do so you're more willing to sit closer to them to see them as a teammate, etc. And I think it's really important to end that. And what's really important is to understand that this strategy in you know, that makes us more open minded, and hence able to talk to people who is politics we disagree with that is simply a leap of imagination. When you're thinking about the perspective of a murderer or a refugee, you really don't know, you cannot know. So it starts with a moment of uncertainty and what Socrates called the kind of productive perplexity that allows us to get along together. And also what we're trying to do there is not simply understand their perspective so we can emerge victorious over it. Or so we can basically win them over by squashing who they are. Know actually what's really important is to understand their potential and not just they're set in stone wrong. So we all and others who we fear and loathe had the potential to change and unless you can open up to the you know, was something of their rightness or something of your wrongness you can't move forward. And in fact, there are activists in LA, who have been working for years on canvassing conversations, that is they talk to voters who oppose these are LGBTQ activists, who are talking to voters who oppose gay rights or transgender rights, and their their type of conversation is based on this perspective taking. And they've been able to do 10 minute conversations with an opposite of voter that boost. Not in all cases, but in a minority of cases. And important the minority of cases, they're able to boost the tolerance of that opposition voter simply by allowing the voter to be human and then to see the humanity in the canvasser. So there's, it's really important that uncertainty allows us to create a space for mutual learning. That's really what it is, it's not a way to emerge victorious over another.

Sucheta Kamath: And you know, all the readings that I have done and, you know, research that I have followed, kind of shows the playability of the mind, mind is so amiable to changing itself, through training and seeking that change is the journey. And whether we are kicking and screaming, or whether you're engaged participant is the difference. Of course, there was a neat study about groups of people based on whatever the political leanings were, they were asked to assess the policy for immigration, and it just depend depended on what they read prior to reading the document that talked about the policy. And the one setting, they asked the participants to read an article about germs, and how germs invade the body, and attack the body and destroy the body. And so those who read that article, before reading the immigration policy, were completely kind of influenced by that view. And they compared immigrants or illegal immigrants, as you know, invading the body and attacking. And, and so they their, you know, preferences for what policy should be much more conservative, they did not want anything. And so they position another, you know, reading article that the second group read, which was a little bit more about inclusion and how things allowed, I forget what the story they said. And that was just such an interesting example to me that just by reading, we can be prompt to think about issues in a particular way. So to your point about taking perspective, it requires you to put yourself in spaces where people who think different, are are different, or believe in different things is happening. But that may be creating some sense of fear or discomfort, because it's uncertainty, what would they say? What would they think of me, or I don't agree with them. So, so interesting.

Maggie Jackson: So I think it's also really important to add that what you're doing when you take the perspective of another step, simple step that begins with uncertainty, and that has such incredibly powerful effects on our ability to engage with others, what you're basically doing is jolting yourself from those assumptions you are doing what we were just talking about earlier in the conversation, that uncertainty is unsettling. That's a kind of good stress. And so if you can, you know, use utilize strategies such as perspective taking to, you know, loosen your assumptions, it's an uncomfortable feeling, you're actually moving to the edge of your knowledge, you're looking into the abyss, so to speak, of what you don't know. And yet that's, that's where the action lies. That's in child development. There's a term called zone of proximal development. And that's often a shorthand for scaffolding. That's the, that's the zone where a child might be pushing and stretching himself. And a caregiver will give a little support but not too much support to enable the child to grow at that point, but really, that's actually related to or really an illustration of what all humans do, they cannot grow and thrive unless they're at the edge of what they know, pushing, perching further into the unknown. That's where as Philip David Zelazo, great neuroscientists told me that's the action where the action is that's the green But on the tree, so when you are uncertain, you are again pushing, leaning into what you can do, not retreating back into what you already know, and what you are what comes, you know, by second nature, it's really important in understanding uncertainty to know that uncertainty is both a spur. It's an unsettling moment of good stress that wakes you up to what is going on in the world that gives you an invitation, but it's also a space. And within that space, then we begin to understand options, understand the perspectives of others, just like the CEOs did who are ambivalent, understand what can be an ask, what if questions, that's what that's what occurs in the daydream. That's what occurs when we are sleeping on a problem. You know, and your mind is meaning making while you're doing so, quote, unquote, nothing. That's what occurs when the surgeon pauses, even for a minute or two in an operating room, and doesn't act just on automatic know how they come. So second nature, but rather they pause and that uncomfortable, unsettling moment, and they pick up on the invitation of uncertainty, and then they begin to break the inertia of their knowing in order to move to greater ends. So uncertainty has a reputation for being synonymous with inertia and weakness. But it's actually the opposite is true. It's our fear of uncertainty that holds us back and makes us paralyzed from acting. It's not the uncertainty itself, which is a space of possibility.

Sucheta Kamath: Love, love. I think every single I'm now taking notes about what you're saying, when I can have access to this. I just can't help it. I was just thinking about this interesting conversation I recently heard. You know, a, I think I mentioned the podcast, Gray Area, where philosopher Sophie Scott Brown was talking about anarchism. And she defined it in such a peculiar way. She said, being politically committed without having all the answers. And I just thought that is capturing all the uncertainty as we enter the dragon of politics, you know, or watching views. And, you know, I, I think this way, but I don't agree with this, and how do I reconcile with my own beliefs that are contradictory, but I do want to be open to people thinking differently. And I love that she was talking about that. It's, it's anarchy, I mean, typically is thought about like rebellion, but it is a being in the world, where you are practicing in creating contingency, the ability to adapt, and different kinds of problems, as they come your way, having the knowledge that I haven't solved this problem before. So the fact that I feel uncertain is because this problem is new. But my skills are there, like I have the skills, just the problem is new. So that's what you were talking about. I want to kind of shift gear here, because I think, kind of continuing on the theme of distracted, one of the things that you really beautifully harnessed is about the default mode network, the value and importance of daydreaming and chilling, letting the brain lose so that it can do its magic. So can we talk a little bit about that? For a second? 

Maggie Jackson: Yes, yes, yes, exactly. I call this the byways of the mind. It's important that uncertainty is not just the spur. It's not just a space, but it's also a kind of suspense. So it's a it's it's really putting time on our side, when we're uncertain. Of course, it slows us down, you know, groups that are uncertain, actually slow in their rush to judgment, which can be again, unsettling, they often think that they're not performing as effectively when they're poor performing more effectively than groups that are certain. But so we have this capability within us to let's start with daydreaming to ask what if questions, you know, to basically step away from the here and now and turn within literally decouple from the from perceiving the environment where your brain is sort of hijacking you or or activating systems that are related to inner work when you're daydreaming, not outside perception. And at that moment, of course, you are. It's, you know, it's basically a mode of uncertainty and action. It's very much a combination of the default mode network being highly activated and also the Executive mind. Now that's something that scientists were really surprised by why would the executive network be working hand in hand with the default node network, which is a, an extremely important recently discovered network related to meaning making and understanding others perspectives and, and, and daydreaming. And it's really because the executive network is allowing you to have a kind of coherence in the daydream. And that speaks to why how important daydreams are for, you know, human identity and for human flourishing. They are not the aimless mind wandering, I mean, that can be, but the daydreaming is really important because it allows us to set sail as what us questions and what do what Jerome singer called the great psychologist that, you know, sort of tackle the quote unquote, unfinished business of our lives. So daydreams are very highly planful. They're really often related to planning, you know, I'm going to this party will, how should I get ready? And what might happen there? I'm asking I'm daydreaming about it, I'm in and this for that might happen there multiple kinds of perspectives. Here we are with that multiples per sec perspective. And it's really interesting, because, in some studies, by the neuroscientist, Mary Helen Immordino Yang, who's a really...

Sucheta Kamath:  She's been on the podcast, too. 

Maggie Jackson: Yeah, she's an amazing thinker and neuroscientists, she studied youth from very challenged environments, and found that those who daydreamed in complex ways were more successful at school, and socially, and they were highly cognitively flexible. And what does that mean? Well, cognitive flexibility is the ability to move from different perspectives, different views, different ideas related to you know, when you're solving a math problem, or to having a daydream, if you want to kind of walk around the problem and see it from different sides. Cognitive flexibility allows you to do that. And it's really highly related to daydreaming. And yet going back to the culture we live in. It wasn't until about the industrial age that daydreaming began to seep be seen as being efficient. And in fact, it was seen as a female activity, and, you know, a very as a form of idleness that was scorned. And that was because, you know, we began to be efficiency oriented in the industrial age and think that daydreaming was a waste of time when it was anything but, and I visited one incredible Cisco Systems biologist in Boston, a world renowned scientist Jim Collins at MIT. He creates new antibiotics and tests for Ebola an incredible, credible scientist, he attributes a lot of his renown, to his habit of daydreaming, he invests practice doing thought experiments that that lead his work. And when he tried to get his laboratory with all his young scientists and engineers to do it, they knew need, and they refused, because they said it wasn't productive, and it was, quote, unquote, inactive. And yet, years later, I tracked down one of the most impressive talented scientists in his laboratory, and Kyle Allison now at Emory. And he basically, and time had begun to start to daydream, he finally began to see how important this was to the human ability to invent and the human ability to invent themselves.

Sucheta Kamath: You know, the, particularly the, I mean, Jim Collins, his every own his whole approach, uh, so scientific and yet very artistic. I feel like you know, he has a very artistic mind. And I know I encourage your listeners, please read. It's chapter four. And but but I thought one story there was very cute that he recalled that he came to school and he had forgotten he was part of the project with his friends, or classmates, and he was supposed to bring a flashlight and he forgot. And he got in trouble with his teacher, as well as his peers were a little upset with him. But in that, his ability to kind of think, oh, there's a jar and there's actually Sun, Sun, actually sun's rays can be deflected in the jar, and that can be our source of light, this quick thinking, he attributes to that process or the way you described it. And I do think that, that innovative thinking, that ability to think on your feet, that we often think that somehow you are smart, no but somehow you have lived in the space where you have not boxed your brain into producing all the time. You've just liberated the brain to just roam around. on and just kind of go on stroke mental strokes, so to speak. So I thought that was a really beautiful story about even as a young child and you know, I mean, the the project that was another interesting project about the sketchbook if you can talk about, but I do think that, you know, as I visit a lot of schools and talk about getting cooperation and compliance from students, when they're not paying attention to reduce disruption, we are putting so many tight rules about behaving, and completely undermining the inner life of children. So doodling assures so much value in default mode, network activation, you know, even like looking away in far distance. So maybe you can talk a little bit about that project, which kind of I was disappointed to know that it shut down now. Right? 

Maggie Jackson: Well, yeah, I was really interested in in, you know, when and how humans ask these what if questions and, and I began to investigate sketchbooks as or daydreaming as a sketchbook of the mind. Because it really is a portable space for detours and what if questions and errors and etc, you know, artists carry sketchbooks around, and they use them to doodle and to try out things and to, you know, kind of investigate in in sketchy loose ways, just as we do can do in the daydream. And the importance of the sketchbook just shows itself in a sort of analog, you know, metaphorically how important daydreaming is Leonardo da Vinci, of course, who created the most important sketchbooks perhaps and all of humanity said, confused things rouse the minds to invention. So giving ourselves permission through daydreams to just make errors and take detours and try things out is very, very important, especially at a time when young people as you say, are really feel under pressure to get things right the first time to make thinking downloadable to make it you know, what makes them go their thoughts go from A to B as fit quickly as possible, which is really a very, very narrow understanding of what the mind can do. By investing in a moment or two of daydreaming, you are actually able to invest in an understanding of how life could be, rather than just living, as you know, in within the kind of the limits of your assumptions and your stereotypes and your, you know, goal oriented type of thinking. So it's really important to let the mind loose, let the mind go. And again, this is not a unproductive cognitive state whatsoever. It makes it makes it really, you know, it makes us really me really wonder, you know, how and why we can a become more respectful of other people's times to daydream, not see, there are many, many people who have told me that in the office, if they were seeing just thinking it would be the kiss of death, because that see, that's tantamount to doing nothing. So they can't just sit and think, because that's seen as unproductive, which is a really sad state about, you know, what, what we value in, in the life of the mind.

Sucheta Kamath: Yeah, and I think the real emphasis that you brought out, there was the, you know, all of us having robust inner life, and that robust inner life needs a lot of nurturing, but it looks very different than outside robust life, because outside robust life is going and doing and being places robust in our life is actually looks like you're doing nothing, you're idle, and you almost may be thought of as wasting time. So I do appreciate that. That example that you typed that for the default mode network activation and just having going on a stroll without your phone, or just actually looking dedicating an hour like Jim Collins talks about, like one hour, like of daydreaming or his student. So one quick question sidebar, how do you daydream or is this something that's given you a little nudge to cultivate that or you already had robust daydreaming practice?

Maggie Jackson: Oh, I was. I've always been a daydreamer. I guess I was surprised by the extent to which daydreaming is so helpful and important. You know, as a daily practice, that it's not just frosting in the life of the mind, but it's extremely important. way of being, I guess I was a little surprised by that. But it's very important to my work as a writer to understand different pathways into a complex story or complex scientific literature. And so I do daydream a lot. And I also doodle quite a bit, I write outlines in longhand, which are very visual pieces. It's not just, you know, writing as we might think of filling up a piece of paper, but I, you know, draw quite a bit or I create, you know, different zones of, of writing, I do a lot of different visual techniques to try to understand what a complex story or complex piece of science is about. Because in particular, I don't want to wrote myself in and see the thinking that I'm doing in a narrow way, when really, I'm trying to be open to everything, and proceed in a way that gradually leads to a narrowing and a focusing at the, at the beginning, when I'm, when I'm embarking on understanding something I need to be as open as possible. And so my thoughts are more sketchy. You know, in actuality, and that's, I think, a truly is a more inventive away, I've gotten more, sort of, I've gotten more respectful of that process. And, and the discomforting nature of that process to keep the keep the problem open, is what uncertainty allows you to do. And yet again, you know, we can underscore that it's not easy street, it's not a picnic. But on the other hand, this is where the human thrives. And that's where not just any answer can be found, but the better answer can be found.

Sucheta Kamath: And, you know, I think your writing is exemplifies that creativity, I think, you also take a take us on a journey. And there are so many ways things are like, you connect ideas, you know, I think that, that, Oh, my God, though, there was a beautiful word that you said. But I do think that, you know, that branching and and kind of keeping open ideas open so they can be updated. And this is really the most profound mark of showing your ability to grow with new information and not saying, okay, that chapter is closed, file is closed, no more information can enter that space. You know, I'm so excited that you actually talked about executive function explicitly in this book, and because it's all this is to me, executive function. So what are some of the ties between executive function and the wisdom of uncertainty? I think you have addressed that earlier, a little bit. But I do think that if you can maybe help our listeners see the connection that, you know, the top down versus bottom up both when there's interconnection between the two systems, I think you can have a robust, flexible, pliable mind. And I think, you know, I think the systems are dynamic, and they inform each other. So I love that you tied that together. So can you share that a little bit with us? 

Maggie Jackson: Yes, I think uncertainty and understanding uncertainty and and respecting and skillfully using uncertainty is a very wide arena for our cognitive skills. So it can even be seen as perhaps larger than executive function. But yet, there are many ways in which uncertainty ties in with the kinds of skilled uncertain strategy, it will Well, let's see, the kinds of ways in which we can skillfully use uncertainty and harness or uncertainty has a lot to do with executive function, because, in essence, essence, you know, if we are deliberately and mindfully working with uncertainty, then we are using the executive mind and, and for instance, I talked a little bit about, you know, the CEOs who are ambivalent and become more inclusive and resourceful in they that sort of kite type of expertise is highly related to adaptability to basically launching from what you already know. And it's really important that that is very much a really sort of using slow thinking as Kahneman talks about or executive function as you're talking about, in a way to, you know, harness that space of uncertainty. And so it's really a very A important aspect of deliberation and for of complex thinking and critical thinking, uncertainty is the state that allows you to then pick up on the possibilities and the options within. So it's it's really important, it's really important that this is very executive. And in fact, Daniel Kahneman, in Thinking Fast and Slow talks about how slow thinking is the only state of mind that can deal with ambiguity. You know, quick shortcut heuristic thinking actually doesn't, you know, cannot, doesn't have anything to do with dealing with ambiguity. It's a sort of an instant, clear cut answer that surfaces based on old, you know, shortcuts in our thinking, mental models, etc. So, it when we're in the, in the, when we're in the world of ambiguity, or complexity and nuance, well, then we're very much in the world where we have to call on executive function. And then as I mentioned, also, you know, daydreaming is a sort of discipline, as Mary Helen Immordino Yang says, Yes, I mean, it involves a sort of component of executive thinking, in order to keep the what if scenarios that we're investigating it to be coherent. And so again, and again, I found that, that executive types of thinking are really, really important for uncertain modes of uncertainty and action. But at the same time, uncertainty also has this component of, you know, we can be uncertain and let our mind do its work, when, for instance, we rest or pause or sleep, we can be uncertain and let our mind navigate the, you know, sort of back roads of the knowledge of knowledge architects. And so it's really important that there are also ways in which uncertainty is a loose and creative endeavor to, it does have so much to do with cognitive flexibility.

Sucheta Kamath: You know, as you were describing this phenomenal, intricate balance, I couldn't help but think that you know, people have spent a lot of time particularly I would say, you know, the night and, you know, 20th and 21st century, kind of bringing predictability, like we we have all these things that want to guarantee us, like, you know, we have political pundits in saying, I predict so and so will win, like, we want that, and then they, you know, their predictions are failing or whatever. So, but what's so interesting that in your work that you wrote about was this, the epistemic uncertainty is not as well studied, as we think I mean, out, I was surprised by that, because the psychological uncertainty to me is the way we explain anxiety. There's a researcher who talks about their four main concerns that, you know, humans like, systemically they worry about number one is the uncertainty of relationships. So not knowing where you stand in with respect to other person, uncertainty of the future, not knowing how things will go. Third is uncertainty of a the outcome of action taken without guarantees given and the last is uncertainty, uncertainty of death. So as we think about treatment for anxiety, it's really kind of loosening the grip of that uncertainty on your mind. You know, I was talking about, you know, I'm an ardent student of Vedanta. It's a Hindu philosophy. And there's a concept called sarvam anityam. So anityam is a Sanskrit word, which means not everlasting, not permanent, transient, occasional, uncertain, unstable and incidental. And, and so this Vedantic principle is to the Hinduism, which is not a real Indian word, I mean Sanskrit word. It's called Sanatan Dharma. So this timeless, righteous path to be in the search of all pervading consciousness and it says, it's rooted in the knowledge that everything is transient, everything is fleeting, nothing is everlasting. Nothing lasts forever, everything is incidental, and everything will disappear, but never goes away. So when you're sitting with that kind of concept, I feel that having done this for 12-14 years, it's helped me to have less grip on wanting things to be sure, but I love if you can talk a little bit about as we come to a close that the psychological uncertainty is the hardest, because not a lot of people talk about it, but they act or react to that uncertainty in a very unsavory way. Yes, yes.

Maggie Jackson: Yes. I don't think I understand the question. Sorry. 

Sucheta Kamath: No. So I was just wondering if you can speak to what have you discovered in this, that this topic is neglected in medicine business, even in psychology? Or I'm just wondering why that people never picked up on it?

Maggie Jackson: Yes, yes. Well, I think...

Sucheta Kamath:  As a worthy contender. 

Maggie Jackson: Yeah. I think that in many ways, what is investigator researched in a certain society or a certain era? has everything to do with this, that society's understanding or or what what the society admires in a type of thinking. So you know, thinking is, in some ways, very related to a certain contemporary notions of what is good. So in at least, particularly in Western society, we've spent hundreds of years venerating efficiency even before the Industrial Age. You know, technology certainly puts on a pedestal, a certain types of thinking, even the way the internet looks with just quick boxes and downloadable information. And, you know, instantaneity, it leads people to, for instance, just take the first search result that only 25% of what is shared, in terms of, you know, on social media is actually read first before being shared. So yeah, we're funneled into this, you know, quick knit quick shore type of thinking. And so it's it's almost natural that in medicine, the unsure doctor was seen as the bit of the bad and the bad doctor they unsure business person is not to we have admired even though now studies show that that's actually a mark of wisdom, even the use of words like maybe, and sometimes hedge words are commonly seen as weakness, but they are, in late linguistics describes discovered that those two simple types of words are signals that you're receptive to another person's opinion. And they're also signals that there's something more to know, which, of course, is really important when you're in a social situation, you need to know what you don't know in order to move further. So we've we've basically set up a society and John Dewey, the philosopher called this the quest for certainty. So that is why the human brain in many ways was seen as set in stone in adulthood until just a few years ago. Now, of course, we know neurogenesis Genesis is occurs throughout life. And that's why, for so many hundreds of years, humankind, especially in the West felt that the galaxies were unchanging, the constellations didn't change. Well, now this quest for certainty, is fraying. And the point is, right now are what will our response be? And I actually am heartened, because I think, because if people in medicine are understanding that uncertainty is important for a doctor to admit to, and people in business are beginning to understand that ambivalence is an asset in a CEO. And people in psychology are beginning to teach or treat anxiety successfully by helping people become more tolerant of uncertainty. Through all of these beginning tendrils of shifts in our attitudes toward uncertainty. I think we're on the cusp of a very seismic change in humanity's approach to uncertainty. And I think that that this is really important to be aware of the really important crossroads in humanity, where we can't retreat into the quest for certainty anymore. We really have to move forward into a new age of not knowing skillfully.

Sucheta Kamath: Love, love, preach, preach Maggie preach. You know, it's, it's interesting you say that, a couple of episodes ago, I had Chris Chabris and Dan Simons. And their first book was about these, you know, the gaps that we have in our own knowledge and so the one particular one is that the knowledge gap that we think we know a lot more than we actually know. And our we pay attention to a lot more things. We think we pay attention to a lot more things than we actually do. And so I think, I love that you're literally talking about the science of humility, and and you know, Humility is a sign that I know. But because I know and because I've come to this level of expertise I have come to understand, there's still so much to be known. And so when you're relating to expert, their humility should not be misunderstood as they're, they're idiots, but they are, in fact, have become so wise because they know so I can wait to see how this research will inform. And also, I think, you know, I one of the things that has always bothered me that I used to serve on an ethics committee at a hospital, Mass General Hospital, when I worked as a volunteer clinician, we had different people. And one of the dilemmas that I witnessed the difference between novice versus expert, you know, the novice tended to question or readily took feedback, and then the expert became more and more closed out, you know, like they, and when we discussed a mishap because the whole issue was, how do we not repeat it? But if there's no acknowledgement that this happened, and how do you even move forward? It was a very big dilemma. Because if I admit that I look like I'm not an expert, or I'm not as fabulous, as I'm telling you, I am, and then you may not, you know, like, consider me an expert. 

Maggie Jackson: So I really, yes, we have to change what we mean by experts, we have to change what we mean by a leader, we have to change what we mean by the good student. And, and this is a survival of our humanity, you know, is at stake.

Sucheta Kamath: Beautiful. Well, as we wrap this up, sorry, listeners, we just could not help but over indulge ourselves. I mean, you have a bad host who allowed this to go on for a little bit longer. But Maggie, thank you for your graciousness. As I close out. I always love to ask amazing authors. What is informing your worldview? Are there any books like you mentioned last time that you recommend for our listeners, in addition to your fabulous book? 

Maggie Jackson: Yes, well, I could cast a wide net, but I really love books that changed my perspective, that surprised me. And one book I would mention would be Order of the Day, by Eric Vuillard who is a French filmmaker who wrote about the very short cinematic book about the roots of World War Two, that sort of dismantles a lot of your assumptions about what exactly happened, and we know why and how it wasn't in it wasn't, you know, Hitler's rise wasn't in, you know, set in stone, you know, it really could have taken the world could have taken a very different way. And he addresses that beautifully. And I would say the the other book that has meant quite a bit to me late. This is a recreational reading. I'm not, you know, talking about words. Yes, yes, yeah, moment, but is a book by a Soviet Russian novelist or a writer. Now, there's a book by a Soviet Russian novelist who lived mainly in the 20th century and wrote a memoir called The Story of a Life his name is Konstantin Paustovsky, I believe. And it's a book that took him 40 years to write and you feel as though you're thrust back into the time of, you know, again, a time of great wars, a time of Stalin, etc. And but he always kept his independence of mind. And he was an incredibly wasteful person who lived in uncertainty skillfully. So I it's an incredible read. Unbelievable. read.

Sucheta Kamath: Love, love, love it. Thank you so much, Maggie, for being with us. All right. That's all the time we have today, listeners. Thank you again for joining us. As you can see, these are important conversations we're having with incredibly talented and knowledgeable and passionate experts, who have given a lot of thought to bring us this information so we can change and grow and deal with uncertainty. And definitely as as you listen, and since you love what you're hearing, definitely share this episode with your friends and family. And if you have time, leave us a review. Once again, thank you so much for joining the Full PreFrontal: Exposing the mysteries of executive function podcast. Thank you, Maggie.

Maggie Jackson: Thank you.