Ep. 194: Wendy Wood - Good Habits, Bad Habits

Sucheta Kamath: Welcome to, again, welcome back to Full PreFrontal exposing the mysteries of executive function. I'm your host Sucheta Kamath. And thank you for joining once again, to really take a minute to understand executive function, how it impacts our daily life, how it helps us change the way we think, act behave. But most importantly, by aligning ourselves with the need of the future self, the future self that is not knowable, or more opaque than transparent, and mostly hijacked or overpowered by the current self. So with that in mind, today, we are going to talk to in delightful and incredibly talented and meaning and whose work has been very meaningful for me, and you will also find it very helpful. A researcher who studies habits, so it's a common human experience to want to make a change, become a better person, and overcome some unwanted ill desired habits. And often we say, Just do it. You know, we live in a culture which says, somehow just do it will make us overcome our bad habits, and even become different people by reading self help books. And all it requires is knowledge of new ways of doing things and conscious effort. So the question is, Do people really change by reading about the change making process, and in the world of willpower on the throne, my guest writes, self change therefore becomes a kind of test of our personhood, or at least, our conscious part. So with that, it's a great delight and honor to welcome Dr. Wendy Wood, who's a provost Professor of Psychology and Business at the University of Southern California, and author of the book Good Habits, Bad Habits. For the past 30 years, she has studied the nature of habits and why they are so difficult to break. Her award winning research has appeared in over 100 scientific articles and is regularly featured in New York Times, Washington Post NPR, and every year around the year when new year comes around, and people talk about resolutions, her work is always mentioned. She has consulted on habit formation and change with PG's consumer product division, and CDC's diabetes prevention programs, the World Bank's initiative to increase hand washing in developing nations, and the US Paper & Packaging Board's recycling program. So with a great privilege, welcome to the podcast. Wendy, how are you today?

Wendy Wood: I'm great. Thank you, Sucheta, for that wonderful introduction. And, you know, I hope that people realize the irony of me being here that we are talking about essentially two different parts of the brain that sometimes get confused in research and certainly in our daily lives, we don't realize that they are different and how they function in different ways. So it's very exciting to be here to talk with you.

Sucheta Kamath: I know and I think that was like very eye opening for me you know executive control, we talk about the frontal lobes the decision making, the king of decision making, and then we talk about habits which also are required an essential engine that propels us forward. So I was thinking that maybe you know is habits is the fuel and and the driver of the car is the executive functions, we need both. We need the fuel and the decision maker guiding otherwise we will be aimless. So I'm going to so I'm in business, I'm a speech and language pathologist for last 25 years, I've been working with people with brain injuries and learning disabilities and people with particularly frontal lobe dysfunction dysregulation. And at the heart of my work is helping people change their ways by developing new habits, making them more aware and maybe overcome some bad habits. But I always thought it's so going to be easy to tell people what to do, and they will just try to become different people. Well, you know, that never worked. So my first question to you is, how do you define a habit? And is it a fair statement? I describe it to my clients that a habit is a predetermined sequence of events that is automated, so there's no thought process goes into it, but it's a series of sequence of events that are acted upon. Is that a good way to think about habits?

Wendy Wood: Yeah, I typically describe them at that that makes perfect sense. And I typically describe them as shortcuts. So they're showing cuts that our brains have learned about what to do in a certain context, that's likely to get us some reward. And when I say reward, I just mean work for us in some way. Right. So standing in front of your sink in the morning, you pick up your toothbrush, you brush your teeth, the reward is clean teeth. You make coffee in your kitchen, the reward is the cup of coffee. And if you repeat a behavior, over and over, you start forming habit memories. So I like to think that habit memories captured the most important parts of our experience, because those are the ones that are repeated, and they're consistent. So if you keep doing the same thing, you'll keep getting the same outcome. And that's what habit memories capture, which is wonderful, a lot of the time. But when, as you say, people are trying to change, those habit, memories are still there. And so they have to think constantly remind themselves constantly exert willpower to control those habit memories that they no longer want. And that's where the challenge comes in with changing your habits.

Sucheta Kamath: Yeah, so I think one point that was really alarming an eye opening, as I mentioned, in the top of the introduction, that that, you know, since I was getting ready to even get ready for this interview, and I reread your book, and I said, I'm going to watch myself as I perform anything that is habituated. And I found myself losing track of that habituated process, because it was so second nature, that I felt my brain was free to do other things. So in, I just came from a mindfulness Silent Retreat on four noble truths. And one of a very famous Buddhist monk says, you're looking for the horse you're riding. And that's exactly my experience was looking for my habitual behavior was looking for the horse I'm riding. So can you comment a little bit on this invisibility, this opaque nature of habits, we can't seem to really know even we are behaving in habituated ways.

Wendy Wood: Exactly. That's what makes them so mysterious to us. We rely on them. But it's not like, it's not like we have a belief and, or a feeling or a specific memory of a past experience. Instead, the habit memories are not conscious, they're not part of our awareness. And I like to illustrate this, the horse example is wonderful that that metaphor is great. I like to illustrate it with typing. Because most of us are really good at this point and typing on a keyboard, we can do it without really thinking, and we do it habitually. But if I asked you to list the keys on the second row of your keyboard, you probably couldn't do that, that easily. I can't do it.

Sucheta Kamath: I can't, I can't even type with all my fingers, I use two fingers.

Wendy Wood: And I bet you can type just fine on the keys on the second row, but you can't list them. And that's the different types of memories that you're referring to is, the horse is your use of the keyboard, you just can't you do it automatically. But you can't explain or label what the keys are that you're hitting it. It's not habit memories don't work that way. So that disconnect between what we can articulate and what we can do that the difference between executive control and habit.

Sucheta Kamath: And isn't that so before I move on to the next question, do you distinguish between a habit and a routine or are they the same?

Wendy Wood: There's not a really good definition, definition of routines. In the literature, we know habits are mental associations, associations between I see an A or I think a and then I hit a on the computer, right? I mean, there are associations between contacts and responses. That's what habits are. The way I think of routines, there's not a good definition of them. But the way I think of them is that they are maybe compilations of habits, they're multiple habits all sort of strung together. Like we all have morning routines, get up, have some coffee, check the time, have a shower. So we all have things we do that are sorted in sequence. And each one of those things is probably done habitually. But when we do them all their routines, but that's just my sort of shorthand, I don't know that there's a wonderful definition.

Sucheta Kamath: Got it. So in my work are one of the ways because I work with people when they have executive dysfunction. I like to describe this colloquially as they have time deafness and pattern blindness. And so in when you go on, helping people develop a concept of passage of time, that you create this sense of a routine, which is a predetermined series of a sequence of events that repeat themselves. So five things. So when we say morning routine, what are the five things that you already do? Within those five things, then you also have like when you talk about brushing teeth is one of the five things you do which is a routine. But the habit of brushing teeth is like you don't even remember squeezing the toothpaste. And you don't even remember like left side, right side, top, bottom, tongue, whatever you know. And so describing routines to me, is kind of the the for serial encoding. That means you're encoding your passage of time and creating memory for the future, which is prospective memory. It helps you to know predictability, that means every Tuesday at 10 o'clock, I have a meeting. Every Thursday, I have a meditation class. So now you're looking at predictable parts, which kind of become routinized, that you may not need a timer or alarm to remember, it's Thursday, and it is seven o'clock. So it's meditation. 

Wendy Wood: So do you think of routines as conscious? Are they necessarily conscious? Or is that just one way that people learn routines?

Sucheta Kamath: I think routines are more introspective, means you look back and look at your routine. So it's not like you've so when you think about forming a routine and it is going to come in my question for you is we are likely to change our routines when something radical happens, right? But routine is more predictable aspects of your day, more less thinking you have to do and then you can put that energy into problem solving. So that was one of the ways to think about rapidly.

Wendy Wood: Yes, that's probably consistent with my notion that routines are strung together habits.

Sucheta Kamath: Great. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 100% agree with you that they're strung together with mini versus micro versus macro string of behaviors. So the question I have that I think your work and and the researchers you talk about suggest that forming habits is task dependent, we really cannot say how long it will take for something to become a habit or a habit to become habituated. So is there any good way to think about how much conscious effort and consistent performance has to go into something before it becomes part of uncover the unconscious?

Wendy Wood: You're absolutely right. That's always a question I get, how many times do I have to do this? Until it becomes automated? And it's a habit? And there is no right answer, because some things are just harder to learn than others. So they're going to take more repetitions. But you can help you can help the process along. And you sort of suggested a couple of ways in your question, I think, one is that you can do whatever is possible to make the behavior easier to repeat. So there's great evidence that people who join gymnasiums if you want to go to the gym and exercise more people who join gyms that are closer, that they don't have to travel so far to get to, they're more likely to go. They repeat that behavior more often. It's not what we think God, when we think of starting an exercise habit, how easy is it going to be? But but that matters. And doing things like, if you want to start running, having your running shoes by the front door, or always having your workout gear with you, and have it clean is a towel to wipe yourself down with. Those are things that make it easier for you to repeat the behavior. So you're more likely to form a habit and form it more quickly. That way.

Sucheta Kamath: Yeah, I don't have that problem, because I don't sweat that much, because I don't work out that much. That's another habit. But I have made a couple of changes, which is even the habit of putting the phone so far away in the room that you have to go to get it in the morning, or put an alarm so you walk there and not putting it. So you're laying in bed and looking at your phone, just to kind of introduce those small tweaks. But yes, it takes so long. So I'm impressed with ourselves to be honest, as humans, how we get so much accomplished. Knowing how things so hard to form a habit with.

Wendy Wood: Well, and particularly given all of the distractions and other sorts of barriers to forming healthy, productive habits that are going to make us happy, and help us form positive relationships with people. How good we are at overcoming those. I agree, pat on the back to all of us.

Sucheta Kamath: So what are some of the myths about habit that you wish people reconsidered?

Wendy Wood: Well, one of the things that became clear early on, is that willpower is not going to be the way to form a habit simply because willpower doesn't last long enough. You know, we all set out with great intentions, ideas, reasons for changing our behavior. And then we do it over and over again, it's effortful. And that habit, memory is still there. So habit memories formed slowly. But they also decay slowly. And in fact, there are some habit researchers who think they never decay, that once you have a habit, it's like riding a bike, it's always there. So that habit memory is hard to shift. And it's not going to shift easily by you exerting willpower, you're gonna lose, you're gonna lose focus, it's not going to seem worth it. We've all been on diets and had this experience, right? It started off great. And then a couple of weeks later, you're like, Oh, this is so hard. And I usually eat donuts now. And I keep thinking of donuts. And so those habit memories just get in our way when we try to change with willpower.

Sucheta Kamath: And, you know, I think as I, what I realized, there is such a, this myth is so costly, because it has a embedded allure that all you have to do is try hard. And the flip side of that which you write so beautifully is it leads to this incredible feeling of being defeated that Oh, I have failed myself. And how terrible I am as a person I lack the resolve. You know, like, there's so many ways it introduces like I had Ethan Kross on my podcast and talking about the mental chatter, you know, it just kind of creates this negative loop. A funny story about this, I think. I live in here in Atlanta, and we had a radio station. And as we are kicking off summer they had this competition where they said a polka dot bikini competition. So they asked all the participants volitionally, of course, that they send their picture in the bikini in the undesired weight. And so they will take the summer to lose weight. And then they put this picture on their website. I mean, it's a radio station. So I don't know how they were planning to do this on the radio, but so the people who are signing up that they will lose weight. And if they don't, then their original photo will be shown or published. So it's such a huge threat right now. So at the end of the summer, it was like a total total sad fest because people were calling and begging and saying, Oh, my God, please don't publish my photo. But I failed myself. And it was hilarious, great entertainment. But it just got reminded of your book when I have that. So while doing that to ourselves change? 

Wendy Wood: Yes, we all think we can. You know, the really cool thing. I'm gonna remember that story. That is that that's Yeah. I think that's nightmare stuff.

Sucheta Kamath: Who would inflict that upon themselves and I'm like, Oh, my God, they were begging, please, please don't.

Wendy Wood: So one of the cool things that we have learned in the last couple of years, is that you don't have to think about self control, and habits as in opposition to each other. Instead, it turns out that people who are really good at self control how they're doing it, how they're exerting that self control, is they're acting on habit. So they have automated, the productive, beneficial behavior in such a way that they don't even think about the alternative. So if these people had been able to start exercising in a way that was habitual and it wasn't a struggle, then they would be much more likely to be successful. As soon as you're struggling, you know, you've lost because of that people do, who are not successful at meeting their goals. People who are successful, just, in a sense, really just do it. But they're doing it out of habit, because they've practiced it so much, it's just become the norm for them. It's now the easy thing, that the thing that they regularly do.

Sucheta Kamath: So say that again, the last part about as soon as you struggle, it's it's indicative that we are removed away from the habit?

Wendy Wood: You've lost, that we have lost your goal. People who fail at the bikini contest, are begging horrible. They, if they are struggling, they are not managing to be healthy, which is I assume what the goal was, they're not managing to be healthy, in a way that sustainable. And that's what you need. Because so many of the goals that we want to achieve in life are only things that we can do, we can get to through repetition, right? Saving orderly, saving for retirement, having relationships that are rewarding. Those are things that require repeated behavior over and over again, just doing it today won't, won't do it. So a sink, and as and when you're struggling, you're doing something that is not going to be easy to repeat. So it's an indication you're going to fail.

Sucheta Kamath: So that it brings me to this question about what we are doing right now. I mean, even though it's slightly beyond pandemic, but still, it's an ongoing pandemic, what, what is the relationship between stress and habit? And do our behaviors deteriorate? As our stress escalates? Or is it something different?

Wendy Wood: Stress and habit are very closely related. Because when we're stressed, our executive functions are focused on the stress and trying to cope with it. And what we respond is out of our habits, so there's great research on this, that's very consistent, that you stress people, and they go back to their habits, whether they want to or not, but you know, habits are good, and they're bad. So some people from fall back on good habits, other people fall back on bad ones, but it's just whatever your habit is. And I have an example that I really liked. So let me see if I can explain it clearly. I I had a neighbor at one point, who was a professional cyclist. And she was great. She and I, though, would go out on her rest days when she was not supposed to be cycling at all, because I'm not great. And we would, we were just there having fun. So we would cycled together for about an hour, and we'd be talking about stuff. And then, at the end of an hour, she always sped up and went way ahead of me. And I asked her about it at one point, was she getting bored, what did not want to do it with me anymore? What was going on? She said, No, she just was so exhausted, about having to go at my speed, that at the end of the ride, she sped up and went to the regular speed. So whatever your habit is, that's what you fall back on. When you're tired, when you're distracted. When you're strapped...

Sucheta Kamath: That's a great example.

Wendy Wood: It's made me feel better. Something to do with me, really part of the process of she had been controlling her speed and trying not to raise her heart rate, all the all the time we've been writing. And finally, it just got too much for her, and she couldn't do it anymore.

Sucheta Kamath: You know, it's such a great story, because it reminded me of my experience during the pandemic. I love to cook. And I really believe like, you know, knowing how to cook is the greatest form of expression of executive function. You have to work with the pantry, you have to work with the unknowns, and you have to make things work if they don't go bad. And so both my boys were home, and I decided to teach them how to cook more elaborate dishes. And it was so funny that it is like your previous example of asking to name the keys, they would ask like how much exactly like in what order and I was just getting I was finding it so labor intense, because the way I cook as I start four burners, I have four pots, I have everything ready. And I just throw things together. So now they were asking me one pot at a time, one recipe at a time, one step at a time. And towards the so I was getting irritable. And I saw myself emotionally changed, like my loving, kind, open generous heart won't want long. So I became very impatient. But second thing is, I found that by the time the fourth dish came along, I proceeded like I was like your your bicyclist friend, I finished seasoning and my son like Mom, you didn't wait for me. I said, Oh, you were not looking? Why did you not look, he says But Mom, you're supposed to teach me. And I said I don't have time. I'm just so tired. I don't teach you anymore. This is too intense teaching you I am so much faster, because I don't think and watch a show or listen to books on tape or I'm just enjoying myself. And now this added burden just disrupted my habits.

Wendy Wood: Yeah. Slowing down. You think habits are the easiest route, but they're not there. What is easiest is what you know. And it can be very complicated. And a great example.

Sucheta Kamath: Oh, my goodness. So. So the the next question is I was surprised to read how the mind loves predictability and sameness. And you're right that our preference for repetition is sometimes surprising. And you were quoting one of the example was about this three dimensional car model. So the car, you know, these researchers brought in that 77 models, I suppose, you know, to ask participants, you know what cars they preferred. And it turns out that majority of them just boil came down to this conventional, typical typical features.

Wendy Wood: Sedan. They just want a sedan.

Sucheta Kamath: So can you talk a little bit about this inner tussle between the thrill seeking part which wants change? And then we settle down to happy predictability and why why do we want that?

Wendy Wood: Yeah, it's interesting because most of us assume that we want to innovate and we want new experiences, and it's true sometimes we do, but the predictable, the things that we can anticipate, are comforting. To us, and there's some wonderful research going on by Sonya Heintzelman, right now showing that when people are engaged in habits, habitual actions, they're actually happier. Which is not what we would think, great, we think they're going to be bored. But that predictability is reassuring. It's familiar. It's why when we go away on vacation, we go away on vacation, because we want novelty, we want something challenging and interesting. But then we come home, and it's like, oh, oh, this is wonderful. This is my chair that I usually sit in. The laundry detergent looks like here. So all of those little things that make life predictable, actually do contribute to our well being. And they're not just boring, too much of them. And we do get bored. So we need to go on vacation once in a while. But it's that balance that we started off talking about, between thinking, and actually understanding the experience. And then also, the sort of the habit that runs underneath I think of habits is kind of the infrastructure of our lives.

Sucheta Kamath: It just reminded me of a story of there was a Russian soldier, this came a couple of years ago, who was in a tank, you know, guarding his post. And so he got so bored that he actually charged that tank into a local grocery store. And then when he was interviewed, he just said, I'm so bored, you know, I'm bored of his habit of sitting there and doing nothing, there was nothing happening.

Wendy Wood: Oh, habits can get they can make you feel stuck.

Sucheta Kamath: Yes, and wanting some thrill seeking, which is so counter to our wellness, and well being, as you were saying, so we let's talk about this amazing. You know, you you call the hidden gem here. So on the back of back cover of your book, you say? What if we you harness the extraordinary power of your unconscious mind, which already determines so much of what you do to achieve your goals? So tell us the how does that harnessing work? And how can we harness our habit leaning brain? 

Wendy Wood: Well, I think that when many people are unhappy and frustrated with themselves, it's because their habits are inconsistent with their current goals. Keep in mind that habits were formed through past behavior. And what worked in the past is not necessarily what works for us now. So sometimes, we're in this kind of a struggle with ourselves, between what our habits are activating and trying to direct us to do. And then what we want to do right now. And it's that struggle, that conflict, that creates unhappiness and dissatisfaction, and bad feelings with ourselves. So if we can figure out how to align our habits, with our conscious executive selves, the goals that we have for ourselves, our understanding of ourselves, then life is just much smoother and easier, we're able to accomplish things with much less stress and struggle.

Sucheta Kamath: So exciting. And, you know, I think that the, the biggest thing that spoke to me about this is the, the gap between what we are the aspirational self and the activated self, you know, the one that is going around wanting a better version of self but is not willing to commit to the work that goes into it. That gap will always lead to some dissatisfaction and such a, such a motivator to make changes. But making changes takes effort, but we can do it. So, also, I think there's a another interesting aspect, that your work and many people's work as you write it in, in your book is that, you know, this concept of default setting, you know, like, even on organ donation form, you know, if it's pre selected, I will you have to do some conscious effort or Roth IRA savings, a tiny shift in the forms that I choose versus asking people to make the selection yielded incredible, incredibly different results. So since we live in a habitual way, and we are so unaware, what kind of default settings can we bring in? So we don't have to think consciously about these decisions. I know like technology has allowed a lot of this to happen, right? But how can we what kind of tweaks in our environment we can make so that our habit can, you know, we can engage that part of the brain, which can, if off autopilot can really sit, take a quick critical decision and realign ourselves back into the good habits?

Wendy Wood: I think that's a great question, in particular, the way you asked it, because it is about the environments that we live in, the environments we live in, were not structured, to make you happy, or to make me happy. They were structured, to sell things on Amazon, they were structured to organize communities, so around roads, so that people can get places quickly, not necessarily healthfully. Not in ways that are good for the environment. So our living contexts are structured in certain ways, that make it easy to form some habits harder to form others. And that structure isn't set up necessarily, to benefit you or me. So making small changes in the environments that we live in, are really important, because they will help us repeat the desired behaviors. Like, I mean, I can give lots of silly examples from my life, I'm sure you have more meaningful examples from yours. One of mine is I wanted to eat more fresh vegetables. And, you know, the local fast food outlets aren't pushing those very. So you have to go to the grocery store and buy them. And I would buy vegetables, that would just I bring them home, and then they'd sit in my fridge and they go bad. And I wouldn't cook them because it took too much work, it's so much easier to just order out a pizza, and not actually cook. So what I learned is, if I can buy vegetables that are already cut up, and they're already cooked, I can put them in my refrigerator at the very front. And I'm much less likely to then just order a pizza for dinner. Because that's just about as easy as waiting for the delivery person. So all of these different tweaks that we can make with our living environment can really help us be healthier and happier. And they change our habits. And that's what's important.

Sucheta Kamath: Such a good example, you know, because I myself found that, you know, I bring my lunch from home every day. And the minute so one of the things that goes into it is preparing large quantities of meal over the weekend, which I love cooking. So it's not a problem, packing lunches and preparing for two, three days, or two days at least. And my husband is so gracious he never gets bored with my cooking, which is God's grace. And, but even having carrots chopped, you know, like, just to eat as a snack if all that is planned. I think I find myself not veering away and not finding it boring. It's even though I might have a slight complaint and protest against that routine and how predictable it is. But I find the day I didn't do not bring lunch. I am on DoorDash I'm looking at all kinds of menu and I not only waste time, but I also ordered the wrong food. I eat more and then I feel really upset with myself. So I have four bad results. More money, I spend my money. Five, five bad results. No, you're absolutely right. And and so I asked myself like what was that all the shenanigan was all about, and it's the closest to have come to understand my protest is it's that that's Russian soldier who drove into the grocery store. It's literally boredom. Honestly, I am bored of my own Cooking or predictability of my own cooking or how it's going to taste? So I'm looking for to jazz it up. That's what it is. So I call it...

Wendy Wood: Every once in a while, that's fine. 

Sucheta Kamath: That's right. That's right. So call it doing business with life. This is Sucheta's doing business with life lot of cost here. So, so as we end I was thinking about, you know, you talk a lot about that rational self, you know, you say, we need to stop overestimating our rational selves, and instead come to understand that we are made up of deeper parts, too. So, does the rational brain play any role? Not that's the wrong question. I know it does. So if you cannot routinely activate your rational brain, because it will get exhausted, and it will turn off. So what's the good balance, and I find that in with my clients, I tend to be talking about error analysis. So looking at mistakes and learning from them, to inform those mistakes as to take better decisions for themselves, is that a good way to think about executive control to look at the supervisory analysis, synthesis, and then kind of draw some conclusions to inform our habits in a different way, or are something more we should be thinking about?

Wendy Wood: I think that's a great example of how to identify where people are challenged, and where people are having problems and need executive control. But there's another way of reducing the need altogether for executive control. And that goes back to our earlier conversation, which is setting up the environment. So that the options that are good for you the options that will make you happy, that will help your relationships with your family, with friends, that will help you with climate change, help all of us with climate change, if we can make those options easy and accessible, then we don't need to exert executive control in order to choose them. So just like my cut up vegetables, and your Sunday meals, if we can figure out the bus system to get to work, and practice that a few times and find a way that is efficient, and safe. And that requires very little vault and we already have the bus pass with us. We know what the schedule is, then there is essentially very little bit of control needed in order to do it every day. Yes, the first week, it does take some effort. But over time, that reduces and so then that predictability allows you to meet your goals without stress and struggle.

Sucheta Kamath: So you wouldn't recommend one of my therapeutic ideas is to tell people to change their path to get to work, or at least once a week. So you're navigating in a different way rather than in a routine way park in a different space. Go to your office from a different route, you know, just kind of one of the ways to bring on your frontal lobes is to do those things. Is that something you recommend?

Wendy Wood: Well, sure, if you're trying to exercise self, if you're trying to exercise self control and executive function, yes, it's a great way to, but most of us just want to get to work. And we don't want to have to think about it. And so in order to do you want to practice doing it in an environmentally sustainable way?

Sucheta Kamath: Well, Wendy, it's been a phenomenal conversation as we come to an end, I typically ask about people's, you know, my guests interest and how they have informed their own thinking. But I'm going to ask you a different question. You are on a different path. And I'm very interested in seeing where you're heading. And what's the next big thing for you?

Wendy Wood: Well, as you said, I've spent the last 30 years in the lab studying habits. And I feel like we finally have some answers. And that's why I wrote the book is I wanted to share some of the answers with people. But it's been tremendous fun to apply some of this thinking, to solve problems to solve issues that are important in the real world. And so I'm I'm trying for the next year or so to see if I can set up more of I don't want to call it a consultant, I don't know what it is, it's a consulting business, to see if I can work with people, like the CDC, and work with the World Bank on issues that are important to me, and see what I have that perspective contributes, because I think that there's such good synergy between what we know in the lab, and what we are trying to do in the real world that they could build on each other. And so that's my current goal is so trying to find new problems to solve from a habit lens.

Sucheta Kamath: You know, it's so interesting, as you said, this, it's, I think, one of the most inspiring stories of our own culture, I found, find that we didn't drive then cars came along, we started driving, they didn't have seatbelts, then seatbelts came along. And we all as a culture has have this unspoken agreement to wear it. And we have a spoken agreement that violators will be punished. And the combination of the two, we have managed to become those writers who always buckle up, right. And then we have these environmental cues of the car beeping until you buckle up. So such a great way all this information has helped us, whether you like it, whether you care about it, whether you're invested in it, we don't care, this is what is expected of you, I feel there's so many places that we can bring in this science so that people it's not left to decision making, and for people to make bad decisions. So I can wait. Maybe they can inform us to you know, take our vitamins I was asked this morning I was looking at, I have this, you know, Monday to Sunday, the tablet thing came about with my vitamins, I was very gung ho and then like, again, it's it's not a habit, and I just cannot make it a habit. But then I had studied it and I came down to my conclusion, with an article I read somewhere, which said that when they tested the water in us, it had 80% or more vitamin in it than any water in other parts of the country. World. So people have consuming vitamins without needing the body needing it. So that research has made more impact and my desire to take vitamins for better life. So anyways, so as I don't know if you have any thoughts about that, but it is very confusing. I see the small resistance if my, you know, buying into the mission of life change will be a very impetus to inculcate the habits we are trying, for sure, right.

Wendy Wood: And we're at a stage where we know so much about what the behaviors are, that we should be doing. We should be eating more fruits and vegetables, we should be using less fossil fuels, we should be saving for retirement, we know so much about what we should be doing. And so helping people make the right decisions, so that they have the chance to do that if they want to. That's that's the piece that I'd like to be involved with.

Sucheta Kamath: Brilliant, we can't wait so All right, everyone, that's all the time we have today. Thank you again, Wendy for being my guest. As you can see, these are important conversations everyone we are having with knowledgeable incredibly qualified and passionate experts with their unique perspective on executive function. So go home tonight or maybe your home already taken an inventory of your habits and see what are some of the good habits that can be propelled further and bad habits that can be curtailed. And definitely subscribe if you haven't already to our newsletter, and or an on your favorite app. And if you love what you listen to please share. I look forward to seeing you all again. Right here next time on Full PreFrontal.

Wendy Wood: Sucheta, you're wonderful. This was great fun.