Ep. 140: Lynn Miner-Rosen, M.Ed, ACC - College: A Job Before the Job

Sucheta Kamath: Welcome back to Full PreFrontal where we discover the hidden powers of the brain CEO that is the key component to self directed success. Well developed and mature frontal lobes produced strong executive function, which is how we direct our effort and build our success story. I am your host Sucheta Kamath. And my hope is that through these meaningful conversations, and through thought provoking stories, we can all gain clarity and lead effective and productive lives. You can follow me on my social media  @SuchetaKamath or share this podcast with your friends and colleagues through whatever medium of your choice. So let's talk about today's conversation. It's all about college success and career transition. In 2014 report showed that almost one third of our first time college students choose a major and then change it at least once within three years. And the students who start in mathematics or natural sciences are more likely to switch to other fields. And I have some thoughts about that. I wonder if the parents will pressure because of these are more revered choices. Maybe the reason that may be that they get into math and science. And close to 6% of college students take longer than four years to graduate. And that's really, really important to know why that is so and then. So around 4 million or 18% of the college students that graduate each year, there is something to think about what are the skill set that go into arriving at college, and then succeeding in college and then getting outbound thinking this vision of a successful employed gainfully employed individual and that's why I'm so excited to have today's guest, Lynn Miner-Rosen. She is the founder of LMR Coaching and the creator of the ADHD Jobs Squad. Woot woot, because she just launched it, where she provides coaching instruction and support to college students and adults with and without ADHD, or sometimes referred to ADD executive function deficits and learning differences worldwide. She is a leading expert on ADHD career coaching, and is an ICF credentialed and board certified career development coach. That combination I gathered from her is a unique one in that space. So congratulations for that. And lastly, but not the least, she before working as, as a whole life coach Lynn taught special ed for 12 years in New York Public Schools. And that must be an experience in itself. So welcome, Lynn, how are you today?

Lynn Miner-Rosen: Fine Sucheta. This is such a pleasure to be with you and be on this podcast with you very honored to be asked to be on the podcast because I love your podcast. So good.

Sucheta Kamath: Oh, thank you for being here. And I asked my question, guests this question, since we will be talking about college and career readiness. And we talk about executive function and this space of ADHD. I wonder if you don't mind share, sharing a little bit about yourself? What kind of learner and thinker you were as a child? And did you struggle with ADHD? And what was your transition? Like from college to career? Or were you one of those anomalies? Who took longer than four years or maybe even less than four years?

Lynn Miner-Rosen: So how much time do you have? No, I'm kidding. So when I I actually, just to start off, was not diagnosed until my 50s with ADHD, but when I look back, it was so clear that that's what I was struggling with. But back then, nobody knew what that was. I was just a very busy person, very active. At seven years old, you know, I was dancing, doing gymnastics. I wanted to take classes every single day. But I also had the opportunity to have a role model. My mother worked. And back then, you know, no, all my friend's parents stayed home and baked cookies and took care of the house. And, you know, it was very different. But I feel very blessed that I had that role model of somebody who grew up and I'm a who was working and she had a very, very strong work ethic. And one thing I remember about myself is I couldn't sit still, for sure typical ADHD stuff, but nobody knew what that was. I remember also really struggling with impulse control. And I was constantly interrupted, but I was also at the same time. The first one done with math with mathematics or my multiplication tables or my reading assignments. And they tested me as gifted. But I didn't know what that meant. Nobody knew what that meant back then. So I would be done. And they would say, Listen, you just have to sit there and wait. So I'd be sitting and waiting and wait. And of course, you know, I'd be disrupting the class and blurting out and talking to my friends. And so, you know, that I remember to, but I also remember just being very, just had to stay active. And I think that really helped me the dance classes, gymnastics, whatever it was, you know, that was me. That helped for sure. In terms of college, and I always worked, I think that's from also back from my mom. And I use that experience to really to do what I'm doing now. Because even as a very, very young girl, I was entrepreneurial. I had a business card when I was seven years old. 

Sucheta Kamath: Oh, no, that's so cool. 

Lynn Miner-Rosen: And it said, baby sitter, dog walker, car washer.

Sucheta Kamath: Oh, my goodness, that's so amazing.

Lynn Miner-Rosen: I have instilled in me from my parents that you have to earn what you want. And also, I had to find out, you know, what I wanted to do. And I always wanted to help others. I did a lot of volunteering. I did a lot of working, I would do part time I do, you know, anything I could do? I did it. So when I went to college, I was very shocked at how hard college was, and had a very difficult time, the first two years, and I did switch majors, I was a theater major because I was a dancer, and I was I was gonna be a public speaking major. And then I was gonna do drama again. And then I, I had to leave school for a year because I didn't do well. I was partying and being way too, you know, social, and didn't spend the time really focusing on my studies. My parents were very happy. I was in school, and there was very little pressure from them, which I really admire them for that. And I always tell my mother now who is 85 and still owns her own business and is still working full time.

Sucheta Kamath: On my God, that's great.

Lynn Miner-Rosen: I still tell her I go you know, Mom, you did that. Right. Thank you for doing that. And so I did a lot of other things. Like during college, I was a tutor, I tutored. So I see how my ADHD I jumped around a lot. So you'll have to bring me back to where you want.

Sucheta Kamath: Yes, I do want to bring you back to talking about your career, but sounds like yeah, it's striking me as you're speaking, which is so common we see with people with ADHD is great enthusiasm. And once your heart is set on something, there's a great, intentional focus there intentional effort there. And this entrepreneurship, which is again, having a lot of creative ideas. And I'm kind of investing that in them if they make sense. So I'm hearing that in your voice. So let's start talking about a how sounds like you bring two-fold knowledge to your work. One is your own experience, even though you probably never knew that was ADHD. But second is your own experience as a special ed. teacher. So first, tell the audience what does it mean to be a coach, an ADHD Coach? Oh, and you and I are approach ADHD in two distinct ways, even though our mission is the same. So help our listeners understand. What does that mean?

Lynn Miner-Rosen: Yeah, and just, you know, I just want to verify I started in the business world. So that's where I was going. I didn't go into education until 25 years ago. 

Sucheta Kamath: Oh, really? Yeah. Okay, so, so maybe you can even bridge that gap. What was your what kind of parts of business that put you off to say I need to do something different?

Lynn Miner-Rosen: Well, I had my two kids. I was a career person in the business world. I stayed home. And my youngest, who's 24 was born. My oldest has a little bit of ADHD, but he was fine. He got through school, okay. My youngest was born blue, Apgar 0. He was not breathing. He was intubated resuscitated. In ICU, he was diagnosed with cerebral palsy which they did not know how bad it was going to be, as we know about cerebral palsy. He luckily had mild cerebral palsy but still needed speech therapy five days a week, occupational therapy four days a week, and physical therapy three days a week for the first three years. Wow. And until I was able to get him into a program, they would come to the house. Yeah. So I learned a lot about what does a speech pathologist do, what does you know? So that was very interesting. And they loved what they did, they had so much passion, and they loved working with him. And he was, you know, he loved them, and he got so much out of the therapists. Then I decided that, Okay, I need the complicated story. But I needed to go back to school and have a career where I can support myself, because I did have to go through a divorce. And I needed to have a job where I could support my kids and have medical insurance for them. So somebody said, you know, you could be a teacher, and I was like, I could, you know, I was in my low 40s. And I went back to school in my 40s. And went part time I went to school, I worked part time, and I raised my two kids, and I got two master's degrees, and elementary education, middle school and special education. So that was my shift.

Sucheta Kamath: Yes. And I think that's going to really set us up because I think you're talking about that's how our executive function skills help us right to adjust, adapt and repurpose our direction based on life circumstances, and those passion and motivation. But some are able to do that successfully, and some are not. So let's jump into this idea that what what do you consider as a most well prepared college student and what kind of qualities that student possesses What special skills they possess, that will set them up for success?

Lynn Miner-Rosen: I don't know if there's any one specific skill, that no set of skills? Yes, yeah, I think that the most important thing, and I don't know if they're going to learn it before they go to college, or during college or after, and that is really the predicament here is these transferable skills, soft skills, how to get along with others, how to have a conversation, how to work in a team, how to talk about yourself, how to shake hands, and introduce yourself. And, but on top of that, you know, our clients, our students have so many other issues that get in the way of those things that seem really natural for a lot of people. And some people, it's really natural, and some people it's not.

Sucheta Kamath: I like that I think this is something my experience as well, that soft skills is probably the worst terminology to describe very potent skills. But these are skills also imply that they're softer than some hard skills, which are really more important. And second thing is there in the background, which none of that is true. So I understand the limitation of the phrasing. But you pointed out this important distinction, which is the capacity to socialize and cooperate and collaborate in order to achieve success, and including people in your success. So that seems to be a very important part.

Lynn Miner-Rosen: Yeah, it does. And I think that, you know, in terms of, you know, are you going to college, because you want it to be a social place. And because or because your parents told you to go, or because you want a certain career, I think that has a lot to do with what you bring is what you want out of it. You know, I always say college is the job before the job. And at 18 years old Sucheta. I don't know how we are asking young brains to make a decision about their major about their future about their college. And I don't know how we do that, you know that but we do. And we go ahead.

Sucheta Kamath: I often fondly say that tell the story of my husband and I in India, the structure, one of the most fascinating things about America, I feel is you're allowed "to change your career." You know, so when I came to do my second Master's in US, in my class, there was a 40 year old man who was a lawyer, a practicing lawyer. And I first time when I met, I went and talked to him and said, Is your mom okay with this? Because the way it was drilled in us that my husband and I, we entered college, around 17 and a half, and we that was finallistic. He went into medicine. He had a choice. But he had to make that decision without ever knowing anything about the career. And me never knowing any any career, what that career to live that life means. And so I'm glad that there's some elbow room. So let's talk about this career process. What are what when you work with clients, how do you get them Career Ready? What kind of advice do you give them? How do you assess what their inclinations and passions are? Because that seems to be a very important part of your work.

Lynn Miner-Rosen: Well, yes, I mean, if we've been learning so much about careers and ADHD and executive function, and one of the biggest things is we know is motivation. And if somebody doesn't, isn't motivated to work, they're going to be unhappy at their job. And we have to really take that into account. And times have changed. You know, back in the day with our parents, they used to have the same job for 15 years, and they would get the pen and the certificate, and that would be wonderful. But it's not like that now. And, you know, it's but it's a very confusing process, because parents who want to do the best for their kids want them to succeed when they grow graduate, want them to earn money, want them to be successful, want them to pick a job, that they're going to be able to support themselves, we all want that from our kids. But the thing is, is that they have to be motivated. And then the other issue I see about college is that we are spending so much time visiting colleges, finding out the best college, talking to advisors, talking to administrators, filling out applications, I'm sure you've gone through this yourself. And it's a year, right, it's a year process, if not more,

Sucheta Kamath: And tell me if this is how you what your sentiment is. But I always say when I give advice to my college, parents and college students that there's no perfect college, there's a perfect fit, because the fit is more important than the college. And a lot of times people are really enamored by name and location and the tier one, tier two based on sports or whatever. But that has nothing to do with the student's capabilities and motivation and inclinations. So what is that discovery process? You think? Can you walk us through the steps of that? Helping students discover it?

Lynn Miner-Rosen: Yeah, I mean, it's really something where I frame it as, let's figure out what your interests are, who are you? What do you like to do? There's so much pressure from parents and mixed messages. Parents want you to do really well, in college, they want you to pass the classes because they're paying a lot of money. They want you to finish in four years, that's so the pressure is Go go go, they want you to join clubs and have a social life and get experience and exercise and the anxiety is endless. And so what I've seen is that students are or they're going to the career office, and the career office says, where's your resume, come back to me when you're a junior, and you have a resume, and you know what you want to do? And we've missed two year and very important parts of life for the college students. And that is learning about themselves. One of us is do they like what work they have to work, they have to volunteer work, do something, I say, at a very young age. In fact, there's research about chores, that kids that have done chores, growing up are better employees. Yeah, I'd love to talk about that. But I think that there's so much pressure and, and anxiety that my clients say to me, I can't with my ADHD and executive functioning. And we know about this time blindness, I can't think about the future, because it stresses me out so much. So I'm not going to think about it. Because I got to focus on my grades, I got to focus on my clubs, I got to focus on my friends, I gotta focus on my parents. I don't have time. I don't have time, and it's too much anxiety. So that's what I start to do is let's take some time. Or I actually try to help them manage their time, of course, so that they have the time to do this work. And let's say, you know, we spent so much time figuring out what college they're going to, we don't spend that much time helping them choose a career they're going to have they might have for 50 years. So like it takes time. We have to start when they get like right away.

Sucheta Kamath: And I love that I think one very important thing that you're mentioning is this, this the choice that you make in college because like you said it: College is a job before the job. Then in the job. You're doing something called OJT on the job training and business class that you take or classes you take is you're saying, train me in this particular job skill. So that to me is such a great insight into the students preferences, their inclinations. But the second part that I often talk, Tell me if you do the same is is the barriers in succeeding in spite of making those choices. And a lot of times, students are a little bit aversive to those conversations, because they are either feeling shameful, or they're feeling incredible and incredibly anxious for not having done well, but they never like to. So one of the exercises I do is analyzing each subject. And like the professor, you had, what is the professor's rating? What are the other students saying about that? Professor? Does your opinion of that Professor match? And and the idea there again, is, if you are searching for experiences that shape your interest, then those are very, like, it's a curation process. You're curating your experiences, right? So tell me about what are what's your view on that? How are you guiding the next classes?

Lynn Miner-Rosen: Yeah, my view is they don't have any guidance. They don't have a roadmap. They don't know what the first step is. They think, when you say work, they think resume, and a panic sets in. Because they have a lot of shame about what they haven't done, or what they don't know, or what their parents expect out of them. And, you know, if I, I've had clients where both parents were doctors and their son, incredibly bright, super kid, went to Duke, graduated from Duke ,did not want to go into medicine, Mom and Dad were incredibly disappointed with him very, very upset that he did not want to go into medicine. And so much so that he pushed back, they pushed him so much Push, push, push, he said, You know what, I'm gonna be a professional poker player, because I can make more money doing that.

Sucheta Kamath:  And did he succeed in that?

Lynn Miner-Rosen: Sort of? Yes, yes, he was very skilled in poker, but it's not a good life.

Sucheta Kamath: It's funny, you say that I had an interview. I did an initial assessment and an interview with an 18 year old was about to graduate from high school with absolutely no organization, big picture thinking, no connection with the future self. And then, in my interview, I said, What's your goal? Where do you see yourself in after you finish college? Because the parents were saying you're going to call it? What's your goal? And he says, My goal is to make $1 million. And I said, Well, that's a result. That's not a goal, you get $1 million. Because what is that? Because you did what? He says no, no, I am going to get $1 million. And so all he had no roadmap, as you said, No conceptualization except a an outcome, which he thought is a goal. So a lot of times, I feel that career choices people make or students are making based on the salary promise, and it's not necessarily linked back to their interest or inclination. Right. Also,

Lynn Miner-Rosen: I've also seen Yes, you're right. I've also seen when I asked them what job they want, they say, Oh, I want to be a private investigator. And I say, Oh, that's interesting. Why do you want to do that? Oh, I saw it on TV on Netflix. It was so cool. So they're not they don't know where to find out about careers. And I'll tell you one other story about a mom I met about five years ago here in Florida. She said, I am so proud of my son. He is going to law school in Miami. I'm so excited. I'm like, that's great. Congratulations. I said, Does he does he want to be a lawyer? Well, he does he Yeah, I think so. And I said, well, has he does he know anybody who's a lawyer? No. Is anybody in your family? A lawyer? No. Has he ever been to a lawyers office? No. Well, how does he know he wants to be a lawyer? Well, he's really good at arguing.

Sucheta Kamath: Wow, that's such a great story.

Lynn Miner-Rosen: It was like, so true. And I was like, Oh, okay. Yeah. So that's, I think it's a big issue also. And that's another reason why I do what I do is that there is where do they go? How do they find out about these things? How do they explore? And I really think this is a something that's been going on for a long time. We just haven't really clearly addressed it. I'm a big fan of Temple Grandin. Love her. And I met her in person about three years ago. And I got her to sign my books. And I told her what I was doing. And she said, she stopped me and said, Please tell parents this and I really, you know, I looked at what she was doing, and even to 20 years ago, she was saying, we have supported these, whether it's executive functioning neurodiverse, ASD, we've support we've done so much work to support these children through school and into college and through college. But then then what?

Sucheta Kamath: And you know, I think the the data I was reading about, like, what high school degree meant 40 years ago is what college degree means now, so that college degree does not guarantee anything in terms of income. And as you said, a lot of students and particularly Jonathan Haidt and all the research that is coming from social psychology and and anthropology even that there is incredible anxiety and the children, post millennial generations, are growing up with incredible lack of self assuredness that I will be okay. So with because of that change, a psychological makeup change in that makeup, there's incredible propping up by parents. And now you can tell it's the parent dependence or parents fear, but children are not coming independently to explore a college experience.

Lynn Miner-Rosen: Correct. And I think that needs to start earlier on. I think it needs to start in middle school and high school, we need to have those conversations with our kids and share and let them go to work with mom, and let them go to work with dad. And you know, that's one of the things I start to do at that age is to open them up, tell them, I want you to expand your choices of careers, don't narrow down yet you're not, don't narrow down. Think of all the opportunities. And that's when I even as a freshman, my biggest advice I can give to everybody out there is go to the career fairs as a freshman, don't listen to people telling you you can't get an internship as a freshman you can. And the career fair is the place where you can ask questions of people that are there just to talk to you.

Sucheta Kamath: You know what I think you just hit up. The next point I was going to ask you about to meet three important experiences since we are shaping experiences college is shaping experiences, and it's expanding the mental templates for executive function to be situated in a way, how do I problem solve if you don't have a large deck of experiences where you say I solved the problem this way, in this situation in that way in that situation. Three things stand out for me. One is volunteering. Second is internship. And third is a job, even if it's menial job. So in order to get ready for a job, you need to have held a job. And this sounds ironic. But even working at McDonald's can be incredibly valuable. because it requires all the soft skills you were talking about earlier. And it requires managing your own emotions when the expectations have a you know, low income job, but it's it's intensely requiring you to be effortful. And that can be valuable, right?

Lynn Miner-Rosen: Yes. And the other one too, that's a chapter that's super important, is learning about yourself, learning about yourself, what did you like, What didn't you like, because if you're not motivated, if you don't love what you're doing, and it doesn't match your interests, your passions, your values, you're not gonna stick to it. We know that with ADHD, we need that motivation, we need to have that something that lights us up. And we have to learn about what we like and what we don't like. But here's the other thing that comes into play with that information is when you start to interview, you want to tell a story to the people that you're interviewing with about yourself. So if you don't have those stories, and you're you haven't written them down or even thought about them, you know, then it's hard to bring them up. When we're anxious. As we know, with executive function, we go from here to there, and we forget everything that we're good at and we go to an interview. So by really focusing and thinking about what we've done, what we haven't done a really keeping track of it through college, and I also talked about organization, keeping a binder, keep organizer in college, keep all your information in one place, so you can grab it when you need it. So there's a lot that goes on in college. 

Sucheta Kamath: It really does and I share with you one of my stories with my children. When my son was writing, he had to do a project for high school or school years about hearing loss He went to a book and you know, like, looked up something, read something. The book that he was reading about was talking about somebody who was deaf. And I mean, I'm a hardcore speech pathologist. I said, My very dear friend is an audiologist, you need to interview her. And my son was like, No, mom, that's too much effort. There's no need. Nobody's asking me. I said, No, no, no, nobody's asking, your mom is asking you. And, and I said, you know my very close friend, he knows her. And I said, just call her and ask her about her profession. What she does, what she does every day, don't ask her about Deaf people don't ask her about deafness. But what does she do? And, and of course, I immediately called her and told her that this might happen, he might reach out to you. And he did, and they spent 45 minutes. Like you your lawyer story, I think, if my son had never met, heard or thought about or interacted with an audiologist, that career would never be even a possibility. Now, I don't think that my intention was him to get into audiology. But I think that is such a missed out opportunity that so many of our friends are doing so many things, and we introduce our kids and have them. And so anyway, so by the time my second one came along, and getting ready for college, he would go and have coffee, with friends of ours have different careers. And He even went and saw a friend of mine, who's a psychologist, and it was so wonderful. And they he it's what to your point, I think the most important thing that he got from all that was telling his personal story, because they all wanted to know about him. And he never you never tell that to your teachers or your parents. It only comes up during interviews. But what if you have never interviewed before? So to your point, I shared that.

Lynn Miner-Rosen: And what you're talking about is so important is you know, we call we I do this in my practice, informational interviews, I even give my clients like, here are the six questions you should ask. I help them through it the step by step by step because they don't know what to ask or who to ask or how to do that. Or even job shadowing. Can I go to your office and visit spend half a day with you? I'll never forget to chat to my mother and father were both in the fashion industry in Los Angeles. And my mother worked her way up to the president of address manufacturing firm. But behind her office was the factory. And she would I would go there a lot to work with her. And she would march me all through the factory. If you watch Mrs. Maisel, like, Yeah, okay. So that is exactly how I was brought up, I was in a factory I was with my mom and walking around and sitting at a desk and patterns. And, and I was so blessed to have those experiences of actually being in it. And I that's what I tried to tell young people all the time, and parents, you know, really open your kids up, tell them they can do whatever they want to do give them the confidence that they can do whatever they want to do don't pigeonhole them into, well, you have ADHD, you have to do this, this and this. You can't do it that I hear this all the time. Oh, I don't want a desk job. Well, have, we all have a desk job? Or not? Yeah, I get it. You don't want to be in a cubicle. So they took away the cubicles in all the companies. And then they found it was too disruptive. So now they're putting the cubicles back. We have to be flexible human beings. But we also have to learn what Temple Grandin says about ASD, but I love is until young people experience it. They don't know what it's like. She said, even watering the plants and connecting a hose. If you haven't done it, you don't know what it's gonna be like. And we meet at a young age need to get kids to experience different things. And

Sucheta Kamath: Just a little sidebar for those who may not know who Temple Grandin is. She is a very well known amazing celebrity, but also an inspirational person in the field of autism. She herself has autism disorder and what she has managed to do and become this role model is incredible. And I remember in her book, she writes that in 50s, if you were walking down the aisle in grocery store, and if you knocked cans accidentally, you will have at least five strangers reporting back to your parents that you were misbehaving. And so that culture regulation that that incredible sense of community where you were observed and given feedback, and that allowed you to grow is kind of missing now, nowadays, yeah. One, one thought came to my mind, as you were speaking from where did we, you know, all my siblings and I, my husband and his siblings as well, growing up in India, we have very strong cultivated observational capacity. So my father worked for a chemical company in India, and he was a materials manager. So he would be on the phone and he would be trading benzene, you know, hydrochloric acid. And, and so we remember when we were little kids, like, we'll be screaming, pretending to be screaming benzene, benzene. But anyway, so what he would do is, even when we were little, like, barely 10 years old, he would take us to work once every six months. And we had literally no entertainment, we would sit on the sofa, while he would be making calls, he would be negotiating, different different people would come he would hold meetings. While we were still sitting, we were expected to greet everybody, we were expected to introduce ourselves. And we were expected to tell a story about ourselves. What great, so nobody had to prod For more answers like, What's your name, Sucheta. What school, blah, blah, blah, no, you just tell like a faucet, you tell them a story about you. And I remember on the way back as you would drive back in a bus, my father would just then give us feedback, how it went. And so even at 16 and 17, I remember going to his office, nothing to do with nothing, I never went into that field. But I saw the art of negotiation, I saw the way my father controlled temper when people were not responding. Well, I loved the way he would tease. I love the way he would tell stories. So to me, my children have come to my practice. They have actually, I've used them as a peers for my ADHD and ASD clients, we have got taken people to movies, my children have gone as peers to give feedback about the movie, if somebody is talking to mark, they're like, I think we should watch the movie quietly. So they have been raised with this idea of how to participate. So that's what I think you're talking about that we shouldn't be in compartments, the job and then college and then life, it should be all merging with each other.

Lynn Miner-Rosen: And even more so for people with executive functioning challenges. Because there's so much that gets in the way, emotion, fear, memory, self confidence. There's so much that gets in the way that we need to start even earlier by building those things. Yes.

Sucheta Kamath: So yeah, just so tell me a little bit about your I have two, two more questions before we get to the end. One is the job searching process. And second is the career switching process, which sounds like you must be dealing a lot with. So one not knowing what to do then getting there, then not liking what you do, then saying, Do I have other options? So how do you see that transition?

Lynn Miner-Rosen: Yeah, I see that there are people in different stages of their life. And I'm sure your audience is thinking, yep. You know, I don't know what I want to do. Or I do know what I want to do. Or I'm not sure how to find out more information, or I hate what I'm doing. How do I know what I'm best at? What am I good at? What are my interests? What am I, you know, I think that's missing, I think that whole piece that we don't spend enough time on that is really learning about ourselves. And so that's where I start, no matter what stage you're in, you need to know about yourself very well. Now, the job search is really about, you know, their strategies. And but I think the biggest advice I can give or the biggest, you know, impact I can make is you need to do you know, this is people say this is a bad word, research. And know our kids with ADHD want to research, we could call it whatever you want to call it, homework, you know, investigations experience, whatever it is, we need to take the time to really think about who we are and what we are interested in what we want to do. I mean, think about how much time we spend planning a vacation. We want to know what the place looks like what kind of flights but so much time. We don't spend that much time researching jobs or careers. Many people with ADHD I don't want to or executive functioning tend to take the first job they get they that's like, Oh, I got offered a job, I'm gonna take it. And we also have to talk about that that might not be the right job for you. And let's, you know, really focus on that. But also learn about the company before you interview, you know, we have to align our values, you know, you and I talked about, I'm gonna bring it up to LGBTQ community. If I have a client like that, and I said to my client, you have, we have to know what your values are. What if you go into a career that isn't welcoming? who you are?

Sucheta Kamath: You know, that's important, powerful? No, I think, tell me a little bit more, because I feel how do you get them to discover their values so that they can align them because that goes back to that self discovery process you're talking about, but just indulge me for a second, what I do is I have my clients, look at the mission of the company, and then take the mission of their most favorite company, if all went well, they would love to work. And then we do our work, work our way backwards from that. So if this is the mission of the company, what should be the mission of the person who works at this company?

Lynn Miner-Rosen: Yeah, I love that. And I would love it. If our clients would get to that point. I don't even know if they're getting there without support, they will not really worried about non-intuitive process. But in terms of knowing about themselves, so as a credential career coach, luckily, I'm also strong interest inventory, credentialed and certified. So I have I give the strong interest inventory assessment. I work but I do all the assessments personality, I have a values assessment. We do all kinds of we even do skills, hard skills, soft skills, checklists, you know, but the thing to remember about these assessments that's really tricky is that they're created by people who are neurotypical for people who are neurotypical. And, you know, that's a whole nother conversation to chat to, because a lot of jobs are doing The MBTI as an entry level assessment, and it's really not a clear, a clear defined result for people with executive functioning challenges are ADHD, that are not neurotypical. And I worry about those. So the assessments that I give come with a conversation, and that there I explain what the assessments are, don't just hand them a piece of paper and say, This is who you are, we talk about does and I'll ask them, does this resonate for you? Is this something you can relate to? Is there something that you can connect to Does this make sense that the result of this assessment says that until we talk about each one we spend the time?

Sucheta Kamath: So just a quick question, the strong inventory you were talking about? Can you tell us what that that is? Yeah, so

Lynn Miner-Rosen: The strong interest inventory is created, it's really about about the Holland Code. And it's the same thing, you talk about basic, realistic, you know, the interest codes. And you see that a lot in a lot of online. job boards, they talk about your interest code or your theme. And so that's really the strongest your cemetery is comparing your interests to other people that have the same interests. And then it tells you what they do.

Sucheta Kamath: Oh, I love that. And quickly about the heart skill and soft skills checklist, is this something you have developed, or that's also common practice in coaching?

Lynn Miner-Rosen: It is a common practice. I believe it's common practice with coaching with career development professionals, whether they're in middle school, or college or profession, or independent like me, if you go to a career professional, most likely, they're going to do a set of questionnaires or assessments to help you learn about yourself. Because often I give them a checklist on skills, and they don't realize, Oh, I didn't know I had that skill. And here's the other thing to check them may learn what the skill is called. Talk about it and say, Oh, I didn't know it was called that and I do have that skill, or I didn't know it was even important.

Sucheta Kamath: I love that. So as we end Tell me, this is probably one of the articles that you wrote or one of your blogs, which I loved. This, this generation of young ones coming up the ladder trying to establish establish themselves as independent, self sufficient, you know, earning professionals. They have to come come to terms with the role of social media in their life. What are you? What are your views, I see a lot of impulsivity and poor judgment. Or not particularly using any filter to decide who I am in the space, you know, in the virtual space. So being very cavalier in their attitude in, you know, I have a client, I'll give you a quick story that who, God help us all but used an ID that is not very flattering. And, and unfortunately, there is no way to wash it off the internet. And so that ID, which was now seven years old, still comes up with his name. And he's an amazing, he's matured, and he has a great job. But that was a bad decision made. And that's still sticking. So do you have any thoughts about social media and career? You know, presenting yourself as a responsible adult?

Lynn Miner-Rosen: Yes, you know, I started teaching not only special education, but I also taught computers in business in middle school, I had two certificates, I had three certificates, but you are amazing. My background in business. And that's when the internet was starting to really become big, and people were posting and using their cell phones, young kids, and I would say to them, Do you that nothing. Everything you put on the internet is there forever, and people can screenshot and share it everywhere. And I would draw it on the board, a big circle. And then you know, this one, and that one, and that one, and that one, showing them the potential connections of people that can see their posts. Then I started doing talks to educators and schools and young people about clean up your digital dark, clean it up. And be careful what you say. Because colleges are looking, employers are looking fellow workers are looking, everybody is looking and if you're if you if your grandma can't see what you put on the internet, and it shouldn't be on there. And also to really be careful how you comment, the impulsive comments, people have to learn, take a breath, sleep on it. And maybe tomorrow write it because comments count to Twitter. If you put a comment, we see this all the time with the president and with other politicians, that their Twitter's are up on the big screen TV right there. There you go. That's what you tweeted five years ago,

Sucheta Kamath: And you can take it down, but somebody took a screenshot of it, like it's read. So it's there. Yes,

Lynn Miner-Rosen: This is I mean, that's a huge, it's a hard lesson to learn. But I also think, again, that goes back to how we teach kids in middle school and high school, how we teach them about their future, about careers, about the impact of what they're doing, then can affect them later on the learning, you know, or the experiences or having or the things that people say to them, a teacher says to them, you know, what are you gonna do grow up and you know, do this, there's so much shame and we need to build them up and not, you know, break them down?

Sucheta Kamath: Well, Lynn, I cannot thank you enough for being in this space, and contributing to the evolution of young adults to become really self assured individuals because they need the kind of support. Like you said, this is not intuitive. And this is not a deliberately taught to them. So I'm so glad that you're in this space and guiding and leading so thank you. So before we end, I asked my guest to recommend a couple of books. Do you have some books that you recommend to our audience?

Lynn Miner-Rosen: Yes, so one of the current books that are out that and I met Dr. Rustin at our last CHADD conference. And here the book is called The Stressed Years of Their Lives:  Helping Your Kids Survive and Thrive During Their College Years. And I suggest to every parent at least read the first five chapters, download it, listen to it on audio, he talks a lot about coaching, but he also talks about anxiety and how it's affecting college students of loving of all different kinds. And then the other one I love this is for coaches or professionals. Anybody that's a professional is finding a career that works for you by Wilma Fellman and Wilma is one of my favorite people in the whole wide world. And, you know, this is a step by step with a lot of worksheets in it that you can checklists that you do about values and interests. They're all in there. So you could do your own.

Sucheta Kamath: Lynn and one question as we end, I wanted to ask was about Job Squad? What is that all about? And tell us a little bit more. This is your new venture and the business creative businesswoman that you are. Tell us, how would this help people?

Lynn Miner-Rosen: Yeah, I'm really excited about this. I've been doing one on one coaching and then, and having a lot of success and loving and working with my clients, my my one on one practices fall. And I said, when COVID hit Sucheta, I said, Oh, this is the time. And I've had this in my mind for a long time working on this. But I said, I've got to do it now. Because there's so many people that need support, direction, encouragement, without judgment, without stigma, without any barriers. And there's misinformation everywhere. So I started, I created ADHD Job Squad. It's an online membership. Virtual, you know, it's a it's courses, it's live guests. It teaches straightforward executive career development, job search strategies, and provides judgment free support for adults, college students, anybody, whether you experience symptoms of ADHD, executive functioning, or learning differences, and everybody is welcome. So just go to ADHDJobSquad.com.

Sucheta Kamath: And we will link these websites she has couple so and and the resources are particularly You should also explore the blogs. Lynn, right. Thank you so much for being with us and sharing such a wealth of knowledge and kind of really encouraging people to take their journey into a tour towards career readiness seriously. And so folks, this is our amazing guest, Lynn Miner-Rosen. And if you love what you hear, please share this podcast with everybody else. And stick keep keep in touch. And please know that our frontal lobe continues to grow until the end of life. So let's take this seriously. Thank you for being here with us today.

Lynn Miner-Rosen: Oh, thank you for having me. Sucheta. This is such a pleasure.