Sucheta Kamath: Welcome back to Full PreFrontal exposing the mysteries of executive function. I'm your host Sucheta Kamath. And thank you for joining in propelling this discussion about executive function, the role of prefrontal cortex our ability to actuate our potential to lead very meaningful lives with inner and outer well being. One of the things that today with me, I have a very special guest and a friend who has so many areas of interest and expertise. So we are going to pinpoint on one particular area. So I'm very excited about the topic of our discussion, which is this idea about expertise? Or how do we develop this specific knowledge, skills and talent in quotes? And how does this connect to education and how can educate educators take into consideration as they think about preparing students for life, and particularly when they see struggles in learning. So I like to say that learning by design and definition is not knowing and discovering whatever you don't know. So to me, I find it very amusing that we describe struggles, when we are talking about learning, because it is expected that you will have struggled. And so I think also the cultural myths that we have propagated or participated or maybe created ourselves is that learning will be seamless. So students somehow think if they struggle, it is a sign of failure on their part, or it is bad content. That's why they are not learning. So with that in mind, I'll start with a one quick story about my relationship to learning. One thing that I grew up in India, and I've shared this many times, but I speak many languages. Nothing fancy or impressive about that. If I did not probably that would have been a problem. So when you grew up in a multilingual culture, your relationship to people speaking different languages and having different accents. And not understanding people was so embedded in the culture or interactional experience that asking people so I remember when my kids were a little, and they're cousins, they had not met their cousins, they have two twin cousins who are three, four years younger than they are. And so we went to India for the first time. And they landed in Bombay, and my my brother in law and sister in law, pick the kids up us up and we went home. And these kids, we had not seeing them since they were babies, they were speaking and they were talking and they were so excited. So they started with their mother tongue, which is my husband's mother tongue. And my kids were befuddled because they are not fluent in my husband's mother tongue. Then they switched to Hindi because they thought maybe these kids don't understand company. So they switched to and then my kids were more confused because they had not learned Hindi at all. And finally, Marathi, which is my mother tongue, which is not there, they did not learn but then you few words, so they tried that. And my kids were like speaking but the accent was different. And finally, they the little twins had not learned English yet. So it was very interesting to see these kids, three year olds speaking fluently, or switching codes in three languages, based on encounter they had that they could not connect or communicate with their cousins, and my kids who grew up in a monolingual kind of community, but bilingual household, we're not that swift in switching. And so I just think when you raise the expectation, you shall arrive with skills to follow, and you really realize that I need those skills because there is a demand. So with that setup, I am so excited to introduce my guest, Dr. Gene Kerns. He is a third generation educator. I love that he's mentioned that I should say I've skipped one generations of both my grandparents on both sides were educators and with teaching experience from elementary through university level k to 12 administrative experience. He currently serves as the Vice President and Chief Academic Officer of Renaissance Learning. He has more than 20 years of experience in leading staff development, professional development, he speaks nationally. In fact, I had the lovely opportunity to hear him speak multiple times where we both were speaking at the State Conference, and I'm just so thrilled that finally this has happened after almost nine months. but he has also graced the stages of South by Southwest EDU, London's Westminster Educational Forum, and so on and so forth and global Silicon Valley Summit. One of my exciting things is to share about his accomplishments. Just like a fateful leader he has, he's a prolific writer. So he has published many articles and books. But one of the things we're going to talk about is his current is actually 2017 book, which is called Unlocking Student Talent, the new science of developing expertise. And I'm going to make this promise in front of you all our listeners, so that he can return back out to talk about the his latest book, which is called literacy, reframe. So thank you for joining us, Gene, how are you? 

Dr. Gene Kerns: Oh, thank you. So glad we finally just said, we've been in the same conference several times over and we've been, we said, we're gonna get together to a podcast. So you know, people have like, made babies faster than we got together to get a podcast done.

Sucheta Kamath: Such a great, it's a great comparison there. Well, I always love to talk particularly you are at heart an educator, I often like to talk this, would love to talk to you about this meta question that, can we talk quickly before we jump into your expertise, about your own journey of executive function development? As a learner and a thinker from young age? When did you become aware of your approach to learning? What was your relationship to learning difficulties? And I'll pause there, and then I have a couple more questions about that.

Dr. Gene Kerns: Well, I'd say I mean, I think, you know, we all try to be lifelong learners. So I think we're all we're always trying to become more self aware. I mean, I will say, for me, everything really, like came together. And learning really was college. I mean, yeah, I did, okay, through high school, but college was the setting where I was a bit on my own. And, you know, I kind of grew into the competence and just really, things started clicking. And I started managing things far better than I than I had before. So a lot of credit goes to a very patient and very kind faculty adviser who just became a second mother to me. And, you know, a small liberal arts college, which was just an incubator for, for people to just just grow and flourish. And we just had a wonderful vice president of student affairs, and they had great programs, and I'll name it in Longwood University in Farmville, Virginia. Yes, that's really the name of the town. Yeah. But it was just, it was a great place to be. And it was a place where I flourished.

Sucheta Kamath: So you know, the, the term executive function is kind of relatively new, it's definitely making some rounds in the field of education. Now, I've been doing this for 25 years, and just, I would say, last five years, more openly, I'm hearing people talk about it. But as you think about your own journey, as a learner and a thinker, when did you become aware of strategies to improve your own performance or strategies to manage your learning? You know, like, the, that's not even considered academic skills? Right? Like, how are we managing time or showing up on time remembering to remembers focusing, removing distractions? So curious? When did you become aware? I'm sure, a little bit before college, maybe? 

Dr. Gene Kerns: Yeah, college is where it all kind of fit together. And I just kind of really hit my stride. I mean, you I was starting it earlier. But I remember, you know, like you said, the term executive function is relatively new. And I think there's probably another half a dozen terms that are closely related that are, you know, you know, other sides of the same coin, if you will. So I mean, metacognition is if not part of it, certainly a close cousin, to executive function. But I remember, you know, time management classes that just kind of helped me organize things in some different ways. You know, again, the whole for me, there was just something about the, the ability, well, for example, one metacognitive thing was, I'm a morning person, I am like, like the most morning person you can ever imagine. So, I loved I loved the part of the year where you got to go then build your class schedule for the next semester at college. So getting that catalog of all the courses and when would they occur, and I did the courses nobody wanted to do I did the eight o'clock or 8:30 in the morning ones and the thought that I could go in and basically have my classes done by noon, and then have all afternoon to get the work done from that. Like it was just like, I knew how to manage my day, I knew what I was on. I knew and I love getting up and getting it done. So again, I think it was that it was both that that ability to take more control as a learner that the university setting afforded that, you know, was just not afforded in high school, you've got six periods, and they start here and there and you know, your counselor is going to make your schedule, but I thrived on the courses and the classes and oh, look, I can add a minor over here and oh, look, that's a great time of the day to take this class. And so just just something as simple as the managing of I can be in class when I know I'll be optimal, was was a powerful thing for me.

Sucheta Kamath: And, you know, to your point, I think that freedom, we somehow believe that students can be trusted if in their middle school and high school. Plus, also, you're trying to educate many kids in one class at the same time. So I understand the limitations. But even simple modifications, such as even if you started the classes at 9:30, instead of starting at 7:45, can really improve student's performance because of sleep. So yeah, I think there's such an opportunity that, you know, schools and educators can really modify that. So let's talk about this book, which we're going to focus on our whole conversation. And to me, I think, compared to your other books that I have had a chance to read, which I'm very academic, particularly for, for example, one of your books is about assessment, and which is kind of giving more thought and providing guidance to educators. But I feel this book that you wrote with Robin Fogarty and Brian Pete, that I feel you have entered like more of a self help realm. And, and it is such applicable because all of us are, the way I see it is lifelong learners. But we also are teachers, lifelong teachers, we are teaching someone, you know, all the time. And I'll just make a sidebar example. There's a show that I'm obsessed with right now, which I recently discovered, but it's also called Loudermilk. And it is a show about this man who is kind of jaded, he's a recovering alcoholic, and he just is very cynical, and, and he may be even passing by, in every opportunity, or in every encounter of his life, he doesn't leave the opportunity to school somebody. So he's trying to teach somebody better standards, but he's so aggressive and, and brash that nobody wants to take a lesson from him. So to that point, can you share for the starters, this title, you know, unlocking student talent, the new science of developing expertise? Where did you? And what inspired you all to write this book? 

Dr. Gene Kerns: Well, I think the you know, the most intuitive aspect of that is the thing about, you know, the science of expertise, you know, scientifically looking at expertise, talent, achievement, whatever you want to call it, and I was, and you're right, the grain size of that book is different than the other two that I've written. The first one I wrote was on formative assessment. So you're talking really closely tied to classroom strategies. The third one is solely on literacy, and again, is dealing with, you know, classroom strategies and what we should be doing instruction. So there's a strong pedagogy theme, in a lot of my work. While this one does deal with some bigger issues, it hopefully gets down to strategies that teachers can use, but that my book, unlocking student talent would not exist had Dan Coyle not written his book, The Talent Code, because I picked it up my phone, I started reading it on the plane, I was so blown away by the ideas that Dan and I went, I was going to a leadership meeting for the company, and I was just obnoxious about trying to push the book on other people. And they really pushed me off for a while. And like two years later, they finally read it. They're like, this is a great book, it relates a lot to what we do. Yeah, I told you. But anyhow, so what Coyle was writing about is like, How does anyone become like an outstanding expert in any field, and he studied, literally historical places. And it's currently existing places that he refers to as hotbeds of talent, tiny schools, certain villages, certain countries, you know, small areas that have produced for whatever reason, which is how in his title was The Talent Code? Like, how do you crack the code. And so what he did was he put on this lens of let's go study these hotbeds of talent. And let's see what's there. And let's see if we can find common elements that are echoed across all of them. Now, his book was he was he wasn't, he was writing for the whole world. I mean, he wasn't writing for educators or business in particular, he was just writing a general book that anyone can read. There's one very similar to it called Talent is Overrated, written by Geoff Colvin. Colvin, is writing for business. So he's not writing for educators. What I realized is no one had written about this topic for educators. And so in many ways, our book, you know, could be described as the Talent Code for education. And that's what we were attempting to do is to say, What's distill this research on talent, expertise and performance, and break it down and articulate what it is that teachers need to know? Because we're seeking to build talent every single day.

Sucheta Kamath: And thank you for that. I really, you know, until you mentioned that, or until I read that in even in your intro in the book, I didn't think that at all because everybody's trying to hack life I feel and they're trying to give advice, and it's always positioned as leadership and I'm kind of in the process of writing a book about that leadership skills are really executive function skills, how do I master me? And how do I manage me to achieve the goals I have for me, whatever domain of life that I want to become good at or want to pursue. So, maybe we can pause here for a second, that I think one thing that you also mentioned a quick, brief history of that, you know, we have some myths that have gotten propagated, and which also, I feel, are kind of become some of the best practices which we need to next in education. But one, one such person, of course, is the father of all this is Sir Francis Galton who was not just English aristocracy, but Darwin's cousin. Yeah. And while Darwin was doing his thing, he started, but he's to be blamed for this myth of born talent. Correct. And eventually, that became packaged as giftedness from birth in education. So tell us what, what, what the what, how that influenced the culture before, and it almost like was dormant for 100 years before that got questioned or challenged until you know, the statistics. And David brings that you talk about problem of excess genius. So maybe we can help people understand because I do think there's so much of this idea that a child gets put in a gifted class, is such a wrong way to position the whole idea that some have access and some don't. 

Dr. Gene Kerns: Let's, let's talk about two things and what you've asked about one, let's talk about the mythology around talent and expertise. And then two, let's talk about that word giftedness. So let's start out with the mythology around talent. Despite the fact that if you ask people, you know, why do you think you know, people have been highly successful achieved something, you know, they're gonna say something about hard work and dedication, all that kind of stuff. But behind that, there's still this myth, this myth, I mean, listen to phrases, you know, so and so was born to be destined to be so there's this, you know, this, there's this predetermination that, you know, Mozart was born to be a musician. We almost mythologize the story. And that's why Jeff Colvin begins his book, talent is overrated by saying, Well, let me tell you the truth about Mozart. Let me tell you the truth about Tiger Woods. Let's use Mozart as an example. Yeah, he was composing at five. Everything written in his hand at five was transcribed by his father. So some people said, his father swore he said, I, you know, he wrote it, I just copied it down for him. But the whole point is, nobody plays the symphonies that Mozart wrote at five, they weren't good. It wasn't until he was 18 or 19, that he started writing things we even care about today. But there's this mythology and the popular example. There was a movie a number of years ago called August Rush, a little boy, separated from his parents at birth. Mom's musician, dad's a musician, and it's just like, this kid just sees music anywhere. He can pick up any instrument and play it. he composes and writes symphonies. That's total hogwash. That doesn't happen. I mean, it just does not happen. But we have this mythology that somehow people are born with something. And very quickly, most of us, when we try to work on something to develop a talent, it's hard, which means we must not be born with that. Okay, so that's the mythology we have to address. And I'm gonna say something provocative here. So I hope I don't upset you or upset anybody on the podcast here. As I've studied all of this, I have come to actually really loathe the word or the use of the word gifted in relation to kids. Number one, I appreciate what some some countries in Europe do, which is they don't even begin to even work with that concept on kids until kids are like at least eight or nine years old, which can watch out the variance that when you're, you're sitting at kindergarten, the kid next to you could be 10 months older, you know, they're more advanced, not because they're more advanced, they're more advanced because they're 11 months old. And when you're 5, 11 months is a big percentage of your life. 

Sucheta Kamath: And Malcolm Gladwell talks about that. And the red shirting practice has given this advantages.

Dr. Gene Kerns: All these advantages but but the word gifted I think, actually is I wish we'd use a different one. And here's why. It's not good for the kids that are in the program. And it's not for the kids that are out of the program. If the kids are not in the program, then they just say well, I didn't get the gift. I mean, that's like one of the recipe no hope for me. The other problem is some kids who we identify as being gifted eventually they're going to hit some point along the way where they need to manage themselves more like we're finally the content gets hard. And if you believe that you've been successful early on, because it was a gift, well then when you hit a bump in the road when something finally becomes hard, the internal belief you're gonna say is up the gift ran out, no learning becoming an expert and anything we've got to tell the truth and, you know, we are used to one of the proposed other titles for the book that I keep going back to was the true story of talent and expertise. The true story is it's a lot of work. It takes A lot of work, and most people aren't willing to do the work. So we need to talk less about this mythology or overrated folklore of giftedness. And more about it's hard work. But how can we create the dynamics where kids or adults or anyone is willing to do the hard work necessary to become an expert in something?

Sucheta Kamath: Absolutely, in my mind is just bustling with thoughts about this? Because it sits, you know, Carol Dweck published an article in Harvard Business Review in 2016 called, although you know what, having a growth mindset, actually, she lists I'm sure you've read it, but it will she list five misconceptions. And to me, these misconceptions really kind of are in tandem with our perceived beliefs about talent. So when we are setting kids up or ourselves to look at kids with eyes saying that show me the proof that you're worthy of teaching? Well, that's not the definition of learning. Learning is none of this, you none of you know how, what I'm about to introduce you to because it's called New. And then second is, but if these misconceived notions are put to practice, then we're actually going to have this belief about failure or errors in execution to be See, I knew you can't. 

Dr. Gene Kerns: Well, and that's your internal dialogue to yourself. I mean, it's like, if it's hard, I give up. I mean, it's, you know, it's, we've got to be honest with kids that it's hard work to become great at anything. And they need to be honest about that. And then again, we need to give them the activities they need. So you know, maybe we get to the core idea of all of it and what Anders Ericsson, who was on your podcast before we're talking about his, his word is deliberate practice. And that's the most commonly used word in the literature. Dan Coyle says deep practice, I go with deliver, because that's what most everybody says, the whole point is deliberate practice is highly structured practice. There's actually a definition that Anders Ericsson and his co author Robert Poole put forward and you know, parts of that are practice that considers where the student is and what the next step would be practice that gets immediate feedback to know where the student was successful or not. And then there's repetition. So the student builds automaticity there. But the whole point at which I think we have to be in the here is that true story theme coming back is the other thing that Anders Ericsson said is deliberate practice is exhausting. Deliberate practice is tough, it is hard, it will wear you out. Students will not enjoy deliberate practice in and of itself. However, when they can see themselves grow as a result of their efforts, then they'll be willing to do more. And I think there's a big disconnect. You know, we have kids, I mean, I you tell the story in the book, you know, sometimes the teacher will say, Oh, that kid, he's lazy. Well, that same kid will work out in the weight room or run laps on the track, you know, for a sports thing. They'll spend two hours doing that the difference is, when they work out in the weight room, they see the growth, when they practice on the sports field, there's a really strong connection between what they're doing and being successful in that field. For a lot of kids, they don't see themselves progressing academically. And if you don't get that feedback, if you can't see that today, I'm a little bit better than I was yesterday. Without that feedback, then yes, the deliberate practice that it takes to advance, particularly in any field, but particularly in academics, that becomes hard to do. You know, so I think a lot of times are our daily academic activities with kids lack that feedback flow, that allows them to see, yeah, I'm working, but I'm getting better. I'm getting better each day kids give up when they feel like they're working, and they're not getting any better.

Sucheta Kamath: So let's go through this. So thank you for setting the stage that it is all about deliberate practice. And it's distinctly different than practice, because it has expert feedback at the intersection of mistake. So can we talk a little bit about first of all, I think, what is the role of expectations? You know, I feel we have too often made it that learning this learning is optional. I feel when things start getting harder, students start complaining and students complain, then the morale goes down. And if the morale goes down, then teacher's ability to pursue her own agenda goes down, I get that psychological level I get that. However, I think fundamental job of teacher teaching, is to say this is called no excused learning. This is hard because it's learning and it is will be hard until you learn and when you learn it, we will have next thing to learn which will be hard and cyclical in nature.

Dr. Gene Kerns: And if you're willing to do that hard work You will be richly rewarded professionally and financially. And, you know, I will admit, I am on the desperate search for a book that I ran the beginning of a number of years ago, and I didn't finish it. And I wish I could. So anybody that's listening, if you know the book I'm talking about, email me, let me know what the title was. It began by telling the story of Japan immediately post World War II. And one of the things that was going on was, you know, let's be honest, careers in math and science, they require a lot of really advanced, very difficult work academically. And so the Japanese government actually did a campaign that said, if you're willing to work towards a career in math, or science, several things will happen. Well, one will be honest, it's tough work, it's tough work to do. But if you do that two things will happen. One, you will be richly rewarded financially, like you're going to have some of the best jobs. And two, you will be helping your country because of that time, they needed to rebuild. And I love the honesty of that, that set the expectations of saying, Hey, this is easy. There's not a lot of people going into this, because it's not the easiest thing to do. But if you're willing to do this work, there are rewards that will come to you. But I think, as I wrote the book, the thing that became so apparent to me is, it's that feedback to the learners, making sure that they can see themselves improving, because, again, the activities that kids do on the sports field are incredibly tangible. Like they know whether the ball went in the basket or not, there's no ambivalence, or, you know, it's clear, or excuse me, ambiguity about we know whether that was successful or not. But there's a lot of kids that come to school every day, and they don't necessarily get a feedback loop that lets them know, they're mastering an objective. They know something today that I didn't know two days ago. And it dawned on me when when Ericsson was saying deliberate practice is gonna be exhausting. Nobody's gonna like the activity, the only thing they're gonna like is when they can see themselves grow. I said to myself, Oh, my gosh, that's why so many kids give up is they don't feel like they're growing. And so this intersection between the feedback aspect of deliberate practice, and specifically the potential of really good formative assessment strategies, became a whole new space to explore.

Sucheta Kamath: And to your point, like proof that you're growing, like, to me, as a teacher, your entire realm of teaching is showing proof. You didn't know this before. Now, you know, because you are the one who is introducing these ideas to the kids. And I think this formative assessment, I wanted to kind of before we jump into that, I wanted to kind of talk a little bit about the article. I think this TNTP reimagined teaching nonprofit that has came out with a report, which was so seminal in my understanding of what, where education can really improve itself was this article, this this report called the opportunity myth, what students can show show us about how school is letting them down and how to fix it. So one thing there, I'm gonna throw this out, because you're an educational expert, who coaches and, and teach us educators to improve their practices. I'm just curious what you thought about this. So apparently, out of 180 hours per subject, in each school year, the question they have like a little personal quiz. How many hours do you think students typically spend on work that was not appropriate for their grade, which is below their grade, even though they're, I mean, to your point of mastery, mastery is that level where they need to be performed, and they gave the choices of zero hours, 55 hours, 133 hours and 178 hours? So in an ideal world, you should have zero hours? Why are students being given opportunity to do work that is not appropriate to the grid? And the answer was 133 hours. And when I read that, I'm sure this is very shocking for educators to and this data comes from profound in a wide they had a very sound methodology, like more than 1000 lessons observed. 88% of the time students were working in activities in class 71% of the time students met the demands of the assignment, but only 17% of the time. Students actually demonstrated mastery of the grade level standards. So as an educator when you read that I'm curious, where are educators getting it wrong about even when they design the assignment, they're thinking they're doing something meaningful? So it's not that teachers are like shortchanging students lives. But what what is the gap there?

Dr. Gene Kerns: Yeah, I think there's a variety of things going on. And when you were talking about that report from TNTP, it also triggered in my mind or reminded me of Amanda Ripley's book, The Smartest Kids in the World and How They Got That Way. You know, where she And actually, you know, a lot of her work was some of it was interviews of exchange students, kids that were US students, who then went to another part of the world to study and came back and said, Wait a minute, some things, they were really different. And you know, there's pluses and minuses to the different education systems around the world. I mean, we do some things very well that other countries don't do so well. And vice versa. So we have we're not I don't think any of this conversation is to say, you know, we can always learn something there. There's some things we do really, really well.

Sucheta Kamath: What is it that we do really well?

Dr. Gene Kerns: think in terms of, you know, having worked with some companies that do a lot of consulting in some Asian countries, and in Europe as well, I mean, sometimes the creativity piece, were a little bit more flexible, and we're more open about some of the creative pieces. You know, here's something we don't do so well, we don't set expectations in math really? Well, I mean, you know, we, as a culture in the United States are very willing to say, I'm not a math person, you know, when a kid comes home with a report card with a, you know, a C or D and math, a parent will stand at a cocktail party and say, Well, my kid just got a C or D in math. But you know, I wasn't great at math myself. So I guess it's just, you know, Apple didn't fall far from the tree, the literacy equivalent of that conversation would be saying, My child's only partially literate I am, too. And, you know, I guess that's, we don't accept that, like, we have an expectation that our children become literate in our country, but we don't have an on par equal expectation in math and many other countries do. And I think part of that work of TNTP is kids rise to the expectations that we set. And sometimes we just set expectations that are too low, which I think was a theme in the Amanda Ripley's work, The Smartest Kids in the World and How They Got That Way. So I think we do have to look at our own expectations. I mean, the, you know, the test of research, teacher expectation, student achievement, you know, this is a well documented fact that kids tend to rise little expectations we have. So there is something that, you know, if we're going to really tackle stem issues as a country, we're going to raise our expectations on hold to them in math. But, you know, I also I'm very much of a pragmatist. I mean, yeah, raising expectations will create part of the motivational thing. But at the end of the day, kids still have to master those objectives. So again, that's why this feedback piece and, you know, one of the, one of the pieces that was so interesting, when I was getting ready to your you wrap up the book, and they want someone to you know, who can do the foreword, and you know, who can do an endorsement, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah? Well, I reached out to a colleague of mine, Rick Stiglitz, I've known him for 25-30 years. He's one of the he's probably the our country's leading expert on formative assessment. And he doesn't just write about assessment strategies, he writes about how assessment strategies either motivate or demotivate kids. And so he's constantly writing about feedback and having the learner understand where they are and what the next step is, and seeing themselves grow. So I thought, oh, my gosh, these ideas, they just come together. So well. I said, Rick, here's my new book, Will, will you write an introduction and you know, we write a an endorsement, that will appear on one of the pages there. And he came back to me and said, I don't know the research and talent and expertise. And I just, you know, penned an email to him, and I didn't, you know, get into any details. And when he responded, I took 10 minutes, and I made a video and I said, let me explain deliberate practice. Let me tell you what the people are saying about feedback and deliberate practice. And I think immediately, you're gonna see how it relates to formative assessment. I hit send on that video. It wasn't two minutes later, he responded saying, I had no idea. You're exactly right, there is a powerful intersection between what I've been talking about in the assessment world and what they're talking about. Coming from cognitive science, we're talking about the same thing. I see it now. I'll be happy to write that. So again, it is that tangibility piece, you know, the irony that a teacher will sometimes say, you know, well, will that students lazy? And you know, you look at the kid, and again, they're the most worked out kid in the whole building, know, that kids willing to work? The question is, are they getting enough feedback in the setting to feel like their efforts are worth it?

Sucheta Kamath: You know, you're you're, you know, that way you have laid out this idea of where we get it right and where we don't so I love being some a student who was born and raised in another country, and having come here, and then having raised my children, I see the distinct difference. Because one thing that I got a lot from my country in my education was absolutely non negotiables. It was so clear what was you could not violate. So the expectation of excellence, expectation of completion, expectation of even penship like you can do small things, but you have to do it well. And until you would do it well, you cannot consider it done. So that I think really, of course, now I have become this obsessive compulsive ninja. So that's not good, but are like, you know, my assistant makes fun of me because I need even the formatting in a particular color or dimensions, right to start my creative ideas to be flowing. And she says, Why do you care? I said, I care. There's one person who cares in this room, which is me. But to your point, I think there's the flip side of that is that, you know, becoming rigid. And so I think I appreciate the American education kind of endorsing or encouraging that flexibility. You know, I had this amazing educational journalist, Elizabeth Green, who wrote a book called better teacher, and she gave this comparison, which so stuck in my head that in Japan, when when there 1000 hours of educational encounter, the teacher has, she is in front of the students, 700 hours and 300 hours, she's either by herself or observing other teachers best practices,

Dr. Gene Kerns: they invest a lot more, you know, in the the Japanese concept of Lesson Study, you know, Jim Hiebert Stigler and Hiebert read the teaching gap, they were at the University of Delaware where I actually did graduate work. And, you know, they, they spoke to some of that of, you know, our, I mean, I always equate teaching in an American school, like walking on a treadmill. I mean, like, it just doesn't stop, like the day just I mean, you know, planning period, that's time to go to the bathroom, check your email, and you know, and copy something for the next day, Japanese teachers get far more planning time. And so you have this concept of lesson study where you're going to refine the lesson and make it better and better and better. And, you know, teachers and your schools, their days are pretty well filled. So, you know, we get that carved out PD day every, you know, semester or something like that. But it's hard to, you know, have time to refine your skill when you're just keeping up with making sure you get something planned for the next week.

Sucheta Kamath: So, so let's talk about now the actual one of the most beautiful things, congratulations for making it so successfully, and really beautifully. Because I think one thing that strikes me is the message of hope. So it's not like dogmatic and like what's wrong with you people? But it's saying, Hey, listen, this is something you already are doing. But have you given a thought of doing something different and actually prioritizing, this is the way to do it all the time, not when you find time, or when you run into a roadblock, you do it. So one thing that you mentioned the, the, this this hubs hotbeds of talent, that, you know, Dan talks about, where like, best soccer players or winning teams came from Brazil? And and so how do you maybe, maybe set the stage for our listeners? What are some of the best practices or educational needs that can be met with deliberate practice? And how does this look like maybe at a school level, maybe at a classroom level, or maybe even subject level?

Dr. Gene Kerns: Yeah, and I think you know, so when Coyle study this hotbeds of talent, and again, he used some historical things like studying the Bronte sisters and friends of theirs who were living in a remote English village, but went on to dominate the Victorian novel scene you refer to soccer in Brazil, Spartak tennis club in Russia has dominated the world in terms of female tennis players, the men amount School of Music in the Adirondack Mountains, very unassuming facilities were a shock, shock, Pearl, Yamaha and Joshua Bell have all studied, excuse me, Perlman. Basically, you read the profiles of major symphony players, and that a huge number of them will study there. And again, what Cole said is, well, what's happening there, and he said, it was three parts and I but they, they they overlap with one another. So one of the things he said is, each one of these places has figured out he said, deep practice, I prefer again, using deliver because that's what the research bases you more frequently uses. But his point was, they've learned to practice what they are doing with their learners in different, more effective ways. And I think every teacher is open to that conversation, if there's a better way to do that helped me know what that better way is. So his talent code was three parts deliberate, or deep practice, Master coaching, which I think just goes hand in hand when when to be a master coach, you have to have figured out how to help students do the deliberate practice. So the master coaching is what the teacher is doing. The deliberate practice is what the kids are doing. But the other piece that was there, he called it ignition. And in our book, we prefer to use the term motivation, because we actually said, Well, you know, ignition takes two forms. It's that explosive first moment where you get this aspirational idea that maybe you want to study something or explore something and it's that explosive moment, but then it's gotta turn into that slow burning flame that gets stoked over time. And those are two very, very different things. So cool, for example talked about, like say repack, Korean golfer who will female cream and golfer who won a major championship. And literally X number of years later you see more young girls from Asian countries in golf because they'd seen someone that looked like them. That was the explosive condition moment. But then they also have to have found a master coach somewhere and have to have done deliberate practice which takes that slow burning stuff. But the all of this begins with some statements from you know, I'll use Anders Erickson's words. And one of his articles he said, and this is what gives us hope. You know, the story of babies being born with talent and you not being one of them. That's not a very hopeful story. A hopeful statement is Anders Ericsson saying that consistently and overwhelmingly, experts are always made, not born, that stands in juxtaposition to that, you know, mystical baby born story of you know, Mozart's destined to be the musician. So we all experts are always made, not born. And then he tells us, he says, writing with several other co authors, he says, You've got to forget the folklore. That makes you think that people can't take a scientific approach to developing expertise that that's all this book is about is saying, there have been people that for decades have been studying talent and expertise, they have learned things. Let's look at what we're doing in schools every day and bring the scientific approach in there and stamp out the folklore so that our kids don't get thrown off by that, you know, magical predestined, you know, at birth to become a musician or artist or a sports star. I mean, there are limitations. I mean, I'm five foot seven, I'm never going to be a basketball great. I mean, there are some, there are some limitations there. But the hood, you can enjoy basketball, I can enjoy basketball and I can play and I can work to better myself. You know, but but the the hopeful piece is. And basically Coyle wrapped up his book by saying, the reality of it is we all have a good degree of control over what skills we develop, and we have more potential than we might pursue our guests. So that's helpful. I mean, that's hopeful for kids. So we, you know, it's this is not a sugar coated message. Again, what we said earlier is, let's be honest with the kids that many classes in STEM are particularly hard. You know, no one's gifted in this. I mean, there are predispositions in coil says, you know, there there is some evidence that would suggest some people do or do have some predispositions to certain things. He said, what that means is when you look at the total sum of why they were successful, predisposition might explain five 10%, maybe 15%. On a really exceptional case. The rest of it is who are your teachers? How hard Were you willing to work? What kind of feedback were you given what kind of structures they have? And you know, that that magical story of, you know, talent, being an aide and preborn that treats it as if you know, that's 85%. In fact, Michael, and I love this, Michael Angelo wrote, If they knew how hard I had to work to be successful, it would not seem so beautiful to them. I mean, he's the epitome of multiple, you know, feats. And he said, I mean, if he in fact, there was a, I'm trying to remember there was one that was a person who's being interviewed what the sports stars in, in Jeff Coleman's book, and he said, I hate it. When people say I was born to be this, he said, because what that does is, it overlooks all the hard work I had to do. You know, so there's, there's truth on that side that needs to be told.

Sucheta Kamath: You know, the, the part of the book where you talk about this elevate and the Engage, you know, it struck me that a psychologist in 70s, wrote about this concept called a charismatic adult. A, who is a charismatic adult, who's present in child's life is a person from whom the child draws strength. And this the I feel, educators have such a profound opportunity to be that charismatic adult, whose presence is non judgmental presence, but has absolute faith. That effort is the reason for success and not talent. And so all the phrasing for example, the list of cheer, you know, cheerful phrases that you know, even simply can be exercised, such as where to go, you seem to be top of it today. I know you can do do this, give it your best and you We'll be fine. Like, I feel that those kinds of phrases are so deeply, psycho socially encouraging. They're not placating a child, but they're also not threatening the child that you do your best or, you know, it's doomsday. So so to me, it's the emotional acumen that people need to activate. This is a precursor. This is not even a learning has not begun. This is how you're going to relate to the experience of learning.

Dr. Gene Kerns: Well, it's related. I mean, you mentioned Carol Dweck earlier, I mean, you know, her first work was was was launched under the theory or under the banner of attribution theory, which is, when it gets successful, where do they attribute the psychology? Nobody's gonna understand. But you know, I mean, it got turned into grit and all that kind of mindset. But But basically, what she said was feedback that says to a student, you must have worked hard on that, that is wonderful. If you say to a kid, Oh, you're so smart at that. That's a, you know, a talent base kind of feedback. And what's then going to happen is, if that's what the kids always heard is when they finally struggle, they think the opposite. Well, I must not be really smart to that area. Again, that's that whole giftedness thing. You know, that message only goes so long. And when the going gets tough that the gift must have run out. That's the wrong message to give to kids, we have to affirm to them that they persevered. I liked the way you kept going. I liked the way that when you struggled, you reached out and asked for help. I liked the way they went back and tried it another way. We want to give feedback that is based on those behaviors, which I think would fall under a lot of the work that you do around executive function where the learner begins to take control of their learning and be responsible for it. You know, Dweck ultimately said, Well, you know, the kids who were most successful, if they fail, they attributed to Well, I must not have worked hard enough, work harder. Next time, I'll do something different. The kids who don't understand this, if they believe that everything is just a giftedness, then they say, Well, you know, she just doesn't like me, or you know, what, and also, you know, kick teachers know this, when you give out when it when a greatest high, I got an A, when a great is low, he gave me an F, no, the same process occurred. You chose to use a different verb in describing, you know what's going on there, we need to understand they did behaviors and took actions or failed to take actions that resulted in an outcome. And understand that, you know, where to attribute the blame there.

Sucheta Kamath: You know, early on in my practice, and even in my parenting, I saw a magical switch that benefitted me to be more influential, which I was not raised with that kind of language. But, you know, always says like, Oh, you're so smart. It's so great. You're so smart. You're so smart. But one thing that a friend of mine, who is a school psychologist, who kind of helped me tweak this language was, You must be so proud. Wow, that must have been hard. I wonder how you felt about that. So never saying, Oh, great. Oh, wow, you got an air, never mentioning even in it because it's not really about an A. And this language, particularly You must be so proud has been helpful. And I see a psychological shift in my children who also are kind of have high expectations of themselves. But also when they describe their success. They're describing their pride and, and there's a psychologist who has written this amazing book about three higher order, executive function skills, and a one of them being pride not being arrogant. But pride means taking joy, in completion of work, by putting effort that expresses a precision hard work, but also understanding, you know, like so that pride, I feel good about the way I cleaned up my kitchen counter. It's hilarious, my house, the very proud person is my husband, about his dishwasher loading skills. We all have our thing. But I also realize, like if it's not important to you, you're not even taking interest to understand that there are skills to be developed here. And so I think the work that you have written is encouraging teachers to think about always activating teachers, activating students curiosity about is there a better way of doing it? That's not because I'm lacking. So as you know, in your the last part that you talk a lot about a lot about is how to exceed expect expectations. And so what so first of all, having expectations high expectations is a precursor to that. But tell us about how does that show up in teachers practice, particularly when they have group of students who are differently abled.

Dr. Gene Kerns: Yeah, I mean, I think it's all about just helping students see where they are. I mean, and so, again, I mentioned my friend Rick's Diggins again world's. I mean, to me just one of the best assessment experts. What most people don't realize. And what he wrote about in one of his books was he was a very unsuccessful K to 12. Kid. He wasn't reading on grade level, but he under grade three, he really struggled. K to 12 was not a good experience for him. It was when he went into the military and was being trained as a mechanic in the Air Force that things really fell into place. He graduated the top of his class, and he said that experience. He said in that moment, I wanted to then begin to study education. He said, I wanted to know why. I was the kid who had not been successful. Why, when different strategies were used with me, why did I suddenly become the best in the class, he's like, it was night and day, it stood in stark contrast to me. And he talked about how the learning task was so concrete, what I needed to do was so clear, the feedback was so immediate. And so the lion's share of his work has been basically saying, how do we make that always the case for kids. And you know, we can we can bring these ideas, because also too, it's just about helping kids to commit to just constantly getting better, you know, John Wooden, who coached at UCLA, considered one of the finest basketball coaches in all of history, one of the things he said is, you've got to apply yourself each day and becoming a little bit better. By applying yourself to the task of becoming a little better every day, over a period of time, you become a lot better. So I think it's setting those really, you know, just, I mean, I mean, it almost makes me think about Ben Franklin's words, you know, I don't trust a man that didn't learn something new every day, just every day, just something wonderful, like a little something, if we can just make a minor tweak every day, in bettering ourselves than as wooden says, over time. 

Sucheta Kamath: You know, the more I have, you know, started the year, we published, Ayelet Fishbach. She's a professor at School of Business, University of Chicago, and she is the seminal researcher in motivation. And she talks about this, this whole idea of, you know, self monitoring piece of that, like sometimes, when we see progress, we get motivated, motivated. And I think part of the teacher's job is to not just show progress, but that executive function processes teach students to how to gauge personal change. And it is a little bit moving from concrete to abstract skill set. But I think, to your point, you know, Ben Franklin had these 13 virtues that he tracked, you remember that like every week, and eventually he became, I mean, to me, he was one of the best, greatest psychologists 

Dr. Gene Kerns: He did a lot. He accomplished a whole lot, a whole lot. 

Sucheta Kamath: But he had such a great insight. So there's one, one concept I'm totally derailing. But when one of the psychological processes to get a commitment, cognitive dissonance is a person who is most person who is most challenging to you, get a favor from them, get them to make a favor to you, and they will make a favor back to you. So he applied that principle when he came to the cabinet. And he took the I feel if I forget if it was House of Representatives or Senate, but when he came, he was so opposing to Ben Franklin. And he, Ben Franklin knew he had a collection of books. And so he went to him and asked him to learn a book. And within a week, of course, Ben Franklin was a prolific reader. So he read the book, returned it with a note. And that transaction, changed this person's mind because now he saw Ben Franklin as somebody like me, he's not different. And so you know, even like that deep psychological understanding of who you are, and how you think can also be so beneficial to students. So as we wrap up this amazing conversation, I like to ask my guests, what are some of your books you are an author, a celebrated author? I'm sure you have mentioned tons of books in your conversation here. But maybe one book that kind of has been influential in addition to the books that you mentioned. Could you share with our listeners?

Dr. Gene Kerns: Yeah, I mean, I think the ones that I've mentioned, I mean, again, Talent Code was just absolutely transformative. To me. That was that was the real one. You know, I'm reading one by Amit Soot right now that I think his work relates and it's, you know, his program is called SMART and It's, it's under the banner of resilience, but you know, its executive function in another form there. And it's really eye opening, because he's just talking about, you know, subtle changes in your daily practices around gratitude, and your mindset that actually have really profound outcomes. And he begins by saying, you know, our brain's natural state is one of lack of focus, it's scanning the horizon, are we safe, everything's going on, you know, like, we're, you know, it's the fight or flight that's kind of always there. And, you know, we have to fight to focus on things like we have to fight to have our brain focus, and it's getting harder, you know, it's getting harder with all the technology, you know, transformations that are there. And despite the fact that our brains naturals want to state is one of just kind of, you know, being all over the place, and processing a million things at once, we actually grow the most become the happiest when we learn to focus. And so he's kind of laying out, you know, we're finding our, you know, our prehistoric inclinations to fear for our safety in some ways. And sometimes we're actually worrying about things that we just don't even need to worry about anymore in the modern day world. But, you know, this idea of when we can learn to control our more, you know, basic instincts, we can go to a whole new level of understanding and happiness that comes along with that. And again, that's why, you know, I forget why we're the editors, we are the title unlocking student talent somehow, but I still go back to that's part of the true story of talent and expertise, you know, his hard work. But you know, it's, it's, it's getting this realistic mind frames for ourselves, and just, you know, learning to manage ourselves better tomorrow than we did today.

Sucheta Kamath: Well, thank you so much Gene, for being here today. Thank you listeners for tuning in. And I will be linking genes, all three books in as well as the recommendations or books he has mentioned, so that you can check them out. Again, as as you can see, the conversations about executive function are so important primarily because, one, we don't fully understand the term and that could be a barrier to really focus the intentionality behind developing executive function. But second thing that I really deeply care about that executive function is how we manage our thoughts, emotions and actions, during difficult circumstances, and challenging environments to achieve the goals that matter to us. That means becoming an expert really is about activating your executive function because if you don't, then you will never become an expert because expert tees development depends on intentionally overcoming barriers in whatever you're trying to learn. So thank you for listening. Thank you for tuning in. Please share this episode with your friends and colleagues and family even. And please keep in touch. Once again. Thank you Gene for being here. And everybody have a great time.